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Author Topic: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)  (Read 516 times)

Offline Cammellodacorsa

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Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« on: September 23, 2016, 09:12:32 AM »
I read a lot of topics about how much real is this game or not.
I take the chance to stick at this topic proposing something that from my point of view is really needed in this sim.

1 - The availability of data first, 2 - interface more friendly and that can help us to save a lot of time.

1 - in every complex and evolved business we have all statistics about the overall worldwide situation.

In AWS I would like to see the general growth of the air business worldwide with some numbers, either from the demand side either from the offer side: DEAMAND: number of pax x mil. KM divided in Domestic, INTL, LH for example, and a graph that shows the evolution of these three different demands. On the offer side some number could be easily provided: number of pax x mil km covered, how many planes are flying, and many more. At least to have a general overview of what is happening out there.

2 - interface: I think it should be developed in a way that every automatic and time-spending operation could be done much more easily. More way to reduce routes or planes list. Not only with range over a certain number or lower than, but for example I would select a range of range, a range of seats available. FOR Example: I would like to search for all planes that have from 40 to 70 seats, range from 400 to 900 miles, fuel consumption under a defined limit and a price under 24 M$, and with maximum of 30 min of minumum turnaround. I cannot make 12 searches, this results should come up immediately.
in the route management, please let me know wich routes have a LF less than, or higher than or in a range of %. We need more selection citeria everywhere.
In the route creation, please show at a glance pax demand so we won't click each destination, we would save tons of hours.
QUICK AVAILABILITY OF DATA IS A MUST! :-)

I think I could go on hours but since two years ago when I jumped in this sim I haven't seen so many improvements on the saving-time side.

But we need it otherwise this sim will be dedicated only to whom have at least one or two hours daily to dedicate. I haven't, but even with 20 minutes I would like to be part of the game even when my fleet goes over a certain amount of planes and routes.

Just some thoughts.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 09:23:34 AM by Cammellodacorsa »

Offline JJP

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 03:39:30 PM »
First, I'd like to say how pleased I am at the push to add better UI to the sim over the years.  The current iteration is far beyond what it used to be.  However, I do agree with Cammell that some aspects of the UI still need a LOT of work.  Some aspects of the game are unnecessarily tedious and cause hours of work that could be reduced to minutes.  Unfortunately, with a team of one developer, changes are time consuming and difficult. 

Offline Sami

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 04:20:05 PM »
I'm all in for improvements too, and that's why I play myself occasionally too.

(And in order to improve things I'd like to have exact suggestion on how to make it better, like "add button x to page y for quick access to function z".)

Offline Cammellodacorsa

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 07:57:50 PM »
Thanks Sami for your feedback.
I express some thoughts about possible improvements and really glad you answered on the topic.
I will prepare a notepad beside my laptop when playing in the next few days and write down all different selection that could be added in order for you to have a clearer idea on what I was meaning.
Of course you're free to follow or not.
So, I will come back directly to you in the next let's say ten days.

Ciao

Offline schro

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 08:15:41 PM »
Part of the game-ification of this simulator is to make you work to do better than your competition. I'm not sure there's a more friendly way to present the demand data that won't be mass downloaded and manipulated offline to find the best "formula" to play the game. Yes, it's annoying to search for it, but that's also part of the intentional game mechanics. It also makes it more difficult for a competing sim to scrape data from here to use elsewhere.

I also have a hard time understanding what your complaint is with the user interface given the size of the airlines you have historically operated. Based upon your achievements, you have not operated an airline with more than 100 planes in its fleet, so I'll be very curious to see what you come up with as ways to get your playing time down to 20 minutes per day. I typically run 4 airlines at a time that have between 500 and 1200 planes each in them, and for MOST days, I spend 20 minutes or LESS per day playing the game. The only thing that creates a real time-slog is doing a fleet transition from one type to another in the longer game worlds, however, with appropriate planning and beer, it's certainly manageable.

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2016, 09:14:47 AM »
snip

Well, I'm micromanaging prices, and doing a comprehensive potential routes search on a regular basis, and this is really time-consuming. 7-day schedules can be consuming too. But if you accept lower margins(for less acurate route pricing), and to miss a few hidden gem routes, then yes, you can play rather quickly - unless you are setting up 7-day schedule or changing fleets.

That being said, you seem to always play the USA market(correct me if I'm wrong), and USA domestic routes are a no-brainer there, I did discover this game(always played Europe before). Playing in Europe is far more tricky, with much more uneven lines, much surprises in term of demand, but also in terms of pricing. My ERJ145 lines from Hamburg to former Yugoslavia required notably lower prices than similar routes to richer countries, for example. USA is really less time-consuming than Europe. There are 200 airports or so with all of one having the same demand, and you just industrialize your processes. Not possible in Europe. Every destination is different over there.

Online [ATA] VitoNg

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2016, 10:43:07 AM »
That being said, you seem to always play the USA market(correct me if I'm wrong), and USA domestic routes are a no-brainer there, I did discover this game(always played Europe before).
Agree, played in LAX, LGW, SIN and GMP before, SIN amd GMP require more schedule tricks to keep up the fleet utilization. LGW needs detailed search of European routes, which also take some time to deal with. LAX simply needs to fill up all the domestic route by some aircraft then move onward.

However, tactics in LAX or other US airports are also complicated, esp. after base airport rule changed. 

Offline schro

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2016, 12:59:13 PM »
Well, I'm micromanaging prices, and doing a comprehensive potential routes search on a regular basis, and this is really time-consuming. 7-day schedules can be consuming too. But if you accept lower margins(for less acurate route pricing), and to miss a few hidden gem routes, then yes, you can play rather quickly - unless you are setting up 7-day schedule or changing fleets.

That being said, you seem to always play the USA market(correct me if I'm wrong), and USA domestic routes are a no-brainer there, I did discover this game(always played Europe before). Playing in Europe is far more tricky, with much more uneven lines, much surprises in term of demand, but also in terms of pricing. My ERJ145 lines from Hamburg to former Yugoslavia required notably lower prices than similar routes to richer countries, for example. USA is really less time-consuming than Europe. There are 200 airports or so with all of one having the same demand, and you just industrialize your processes. Not possible in Europe. Every destination is different over there.

Fact check time: I do not always play in the USA market. A current sample of my 4 small regional airlines indicates that I am in LAX, ATL, SIN and HND. I have previously played in Europe (LHR a couple times, CDG once, probably another that I don't remember).

If you chose to micromanage everything in this game and optimize it to the maximum level, then yes, it certainly becomes a full time job. I certainly do NOT do that - I use the tools made available in the game to make macro changes to my pricing and other management level adjustments. These macro level adjustments are more than adequate for me to operate an airline that consistently excels in each game world.

7 Day scheduling - This is typically not a very difficult thing to do, but again, it falls into whether you aim for "close enough for hand grenades" or if you aim for utilization and demand perfection. For example, I know that for long haul routes, I can fit about 5x ~5000nm routes on a 7 day schedule. I also know based upon my base's geographic location, which direction (east or west) that I need to go at which time of day. So, for example, out of LAX, you're best to fly west in the morning an east later in the day, so you can quickly assemble routes that fit those timings - Monday at 6am you fly to japan, it gets back late morning, then fly to europe, gets back mid-late afternoon, then fly to europe again, boom. that's 4 days done. Then pick two more routes that fit and have it leave morning and afternoon respectively, and you're done. Yes, it leaves some unutilized time, but it's close enough for hand grenades.

Fleet transitions - Depending on how you chose to do the transition, these can take a significant amount of time. If it is a more leisurely game world where you're operating 2 types and using yoru third as a transition, you can easily work a couple minutes per day keeping up with your deliveries and not exceed the 20 minutes. However, if you store up a couple hundred and want to do them in 1 go, then yes, that will take a significant amount of time (i've found I can do 100 planes in about 75-90 minutes and 2-3 beers).

As with most things in life, this is a great example of learning time management and the 80/20 rule - specifically, you can do 80% of things you need to do with 20% of your time, and the remaining 20% will take 80% of your time.

Offline [ATA]MuzhikRB

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 12:52:26 PM »
2Sami

one point: can you add column to the "manage routes" table - named and displaying - "Date of the latest price changing"

Offline Cammellodacorsa

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 06:04:49 PM »
@schro: if you're playing airwaysim now it is simply because since more than 10.000 years ago somebody woke up every morning and ask theirselves if there were a better and faster way to do things they did the day before.

So, if you are the kind of guy who is happy with what you have so far great for you.

if you need only one hour to hunt a deer and feed your family for the entire week and you're fine with it great, but keep in mind that around the corner there will always be somebody who is struggling to understand how to do the same in half an hour.  And sooner or later he will find the way, in this case you will only be lucky whether he will share the method with you otherwise....




Offline schro

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 07:37:06 PM »
@schro: if you're playing airwaysim now it is simply because since more than 10.000 years ago somebody woke up every morning and ask theirselves if there were a better and faster way to do things they did the day before.

So, if you are the kind of guy who is happy with what you have so far great for you.

if you need only one hour to hunt a deer and feed your family for the entire week and you're fine with it great, but keep in mind that around the corner there will always be somebody who is struggling to understand how to do the same in half an hour.  And sooner or later he will find the way, in this case you will only be lucky whether he will share the method with you otherwise....

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at, and whether the above quoted post is intended as some sort of insult or just a collection of obscure analogies that do not seem to relate to anything. Therefore, I'll try to properly respond.

I would contend that I am one of the more vocal players on the forums for this game and am an advocate of improving the game for all players. I tend to help out any player that asks for it (whether publicly, via PM or on Skype), including competition that is in my base/HQ in a current running game world (this can be annoying if they listen to my pointers and actually follow through as then they stick around longer). I would also guess that I have submitted the highest volume of bug reports to fix a variety of issues within the game across any topic that you can think of (check out threads started by me in the Archived Bug Reports forum).

By being active in this thread and providing examples of the approach to how I manage my small regional airlines, I'm trying to demonstrate that if I can play efficiently with 3,000-5,000 aircraft across 4 game worlds, then someone that manages far less in one game world can probably learn a few things.

New players face a few challenges when starting to play the game as there is a fairly significant learning curve to get a handle on how things work. In a way, those with aviation  industry experience will likely have a much more difficult time adapting to some of the games nuances. Challenge that I typically coach people through are as follows:

1. This is a game, not a full replication of real life. Some elements are "game-ified" (such as the hunt for demand, slots, CI/RI, fleet commonality). Some elements are simplified (maintenance), some things are abstracted and estimated in a way that doesn't make sense if you dig into the details (staff salaries).
2. New players often focus on details that are generally not important for gameplay while ignoring major game concepts that eat them for lunch. This goes back to the 80/20 and micromanagement argument that I made in a previous post.
3. Instead of asking "how" to do something better or what is suggested, new players will often start proposing fixes that relate to details that usually are not important or have poor usability/gameification impacts to the playability of the game.




Offline Cammellodacorsa

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2016, 08:05:25 PM »
You're a all-around champion, this was already clear from previous posts.
No willing to insult anybody, take it easy as it should be, but I have never read so many I I I in a single post!
I am, I do, I teach, I explain and so on.

I still keep thinking that some improvement would be good, in airwaysim like everywhere.
If those suggested are important for you or not, well, it is important as it will be for any other player in this sim, and I will let Sami to decide.


Offline JJP

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2016, 01:37:28 PM »
Hi Cammell,

Thank you for starting this thread.  Please continue to play the simulation and take notes on what you think would work better, make things less tedious, etc.  I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Thank you to Sami for stating you would like specific UI enhancement suggestions.  :)

Offline Cammellodacorsa

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2016, 07:27:51 AM »
Dear All,
in those three days I noted some additional information I would like to have somewhere around the sim.
My aim is to be surgical when we need to take some actions and avoid to go through a wide selection of pages to be opened for no reason.
There is no reason in the world to waste time in repetitive actions as we are taught by the first industrial revolution.

So, please find below my first notes:

Manage Route
Add selection for: Domestic - International - Longhaul
Add Selection for "Range" of LF
Add selection for "Range" of NM (Route Lenght) - useful when you add up a new fleet and you are avaluating which route fits better the new aircraft just bought, for example
Add selection for "Range" of departure time - When moving routes from plane to plane, I want to move trying to maintain more than possible departure time as I could avoid to check every time if that route is already covered by competitors during other part of the day. This is very useful when considering all those flights leaving early morning.
Add selection for "Range" of arrival time - more or less same considerations as before
Add selection for "please identify all routes with shorter turnaround than standard selected in settings" - Or something like that. - sometime we shorten a little bit turnaround to fit one flight more to our plane, but if situation evolve I really cannot remember where were those routes even if I really need to find them.


New Aircraft
NM selection should be a range, so more than and less than - I think easy set-up there
Same for Max Capacity
Add selection for price Range
Add selection for cruise speed
Add selection for turnaround time

Used Aircraft
Add selection for distance from D check

Open New Route
It would be great to have aside two numbers: average pax demand and average pax demand covered. This will help us to go deeper in evaluation only where we think we might have some space, otherwise now we need to go throught every single airport of destination wasting really lot of time, as things evolve and this search has to be done regularly. Save our time here please! :-)

One comment aside:
I would dream to have a feature in "Open new route" where I select the fleet I'm gonna use and after that I can search for airports in a range of Flight time (with bot option: flight time std, and flight time with time zone applied). This would help a lot the 7-day schedule set up.

I think there could be other hundreds of hint, but those are the ones who came up playing the last three days. Don't want to take Sami's part, but some of them look to me easy to implement.

Dear Sami, please take the above mentioned hints as hints, I just hope to have been helpful and in case there is something you think it might be implemented quickly I would be more than happy to have been the "suggestor"!

Thanks to have asked for this and to take ito consideration all of that.

Kind regards

p.s.: do you want me to post it somewhere else?

Offline NovemberCharlie

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Re: Realism and data needs (time-reduction is a must)
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2016, 03:26:59 PM »
Manage Route
Add selection for: Domestic - International - Longhaul
I think a world area (e.g. North America, South America) with checkboxes would be better.
Having this filter in combination with fleet types will allow you to separate these routes easily.
I often find myself disagreeing the games definition of short intnl and longhaul...
Though personally I could do without this in general, as I find these routes by fleet type (though checkboxes and combining multiple types in one search would be great)

Quote
Add Selection for "Range" of LF
+1

Quote
Add selection for "Range" of NM (Route Lenght) - useful when you add up a new fleet and you are avaluating which route fits better the new aircraft just bought, for example
Personally I would not use this as I research routes before I buy aircraft. If it's a new role in my fleet I do my route research in the route planning screen, and if it is a replacement type I compare it to the type

Quote
Add selection for "please identify all routes with shorter turnaround than standard selected in settings" - Or something like that. - sometime we shorten a little bit turnaround to fit one flight more to our plane, but if situation evolve I really cannot remember where were those routes even if I really need to find them.
+1, also useful when adapting schedules to available slots

Quote
NM selection should be a range, so more than and less than - I think easy set-up there
Same for Max Capacity
Add selection for price Range
+1

Quote
Add selection for cruise speed
Add selection for turnaround time
I think these two are overdoing it a bit...
Cruise speed makes little difference when staying in a category (prop/turboprop/jet/supersonic). 
A little general knowledge may be expected.
Turnaround, usually doesn't differ hugely and if it does, does it matter?

Quote
It would be great to have aside two numbers: average pax demand and average pax demand covered. This will help us to go deeper in evaluation only where we think we might have some space, otherwise now we need to go throught every single airport of destination wasting really lot of time, as things evolve and this search has to be done regularly. Save our time here please! :-)
I have mixed feelings about this...
One the one hand side: yes, very convenient. On the other hand side: No, would take out the effort and the potential for keeping unexpected routes to yourself (if no one else can find it.

Quote
One comment aside:
I would dream to have a feature in "Open new route" where I select the fleet I'm gonna use and after that I can search for airports in a range of Flight time (with bot option: flight time std, and flight time with time zone applied). This would help a lot the 7-day schedule set up.
Flight time is coupled to range, so we already have this...

EDIT: so I am scheduling some ac with a seven day schedule. A next page knob on the add route list would be great! Even better if it remembers the selection from the previous page. Also with the "create routes for next seven days" you need to purchase slots for every individual route after assigning it. So in manage routes when selecting flights an option to mass buy slots for selected routes would be appreciated...

Some good ideas, some that I wouldn't use, some that already exist...

Cheers,

NC
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 05:57:55 PM by NovemberCharlie »

 

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