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Author Topic: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud  (Read 1641 times)

Soho

  • Former member
Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« on: March 11, 2016, 03:04:22 PM »
Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud

I say have nothing against alliances.
But some formally following rules of the game, but in fact violate the spirit of the game.

Here are some examples.

Two members of An alliance offered me to buy a 600 slots in Beijing. which they did not have. It turned out that they sell slots of a third company, once deal failed, after bankruptcy The company immediately has become a member of this alliance (by invitation only) in a new place.

Pumping planes is normal here. Rules Say:Normal one-time sales of aircraft is naturally allowed but transferring aircraft with the only intention of at the same time generating profits/money to one airline is considered unacceptable. They use A-B-C pumping and formally that's ok. I was wandering why a company of this alliance with debit account had profit 20 mln per qtr of non-operational profit with no own planes!

Fake companies. In spite of the assurances providers I easily registered a company with a new ip and name of my own using TOR (later terminated). There is every reason to believe that the so-called new members of An Alliance (by the invitation only) – just fake companies. Other than can be explained by the simultaneous failure of several companies in a region after “mother” company fails where they had one purpose - to create the appearance of presence.

Soho

Online schro

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2016, 04:43:53 PM »
Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud

I say have nothing against alliances.
But some formally following rules of the game, but in fact violate the spirit of the game.

Here are some examples.

Two members of An alliance offered me to buy a 600 slots in Beijing. which they did not have. It turned out that they sell slots of a third company, once deal failed, after bankruptcy The company immediately has become a member of this alliance (by invitation only) in a new place.

Pumping planes is normal here. Rules Say:Normal one-time sales of aircraft is naturally allowed but transferring aircraft with the only intention of at the same time generating profits/money to one airline is considered unacceptable. They use A-B-C pumping and formally that's ok. I was wandering why a company of this alliance with debit account had profit 20 mln per qtr of non-operational profit with no own planes!

Fake companies. In spite of the assurances providers I easily registered a company with a new ip and name of my own using TOR (later terminated). There is every reason to believe that the so-called new members of An Alliance (by the invitation only) – just fake companies. Other than can be explained by the simultaneous failure of several companies in a region after “mother” company fails where they had one purpose - to create the appearance of presence.

Soho

I'm having a hard time following what you're saying as there seem to be a few different issues at play here -

1. Mass transfer of slots in advance of a bankruptcy is prohibited by game rules - if there are folks making that offer to you then they should be reported to administration, as that's an attempt to circumvent the slot uptake mechanism after bankruptcies in a slot constrained airport.

2. The plane shell game is annoying, but the game administration has looked the other way in virtually all cases of plane transactions used to bail out friends/alliance members. To an extent, supporting each other in an alliance is part of the game dynamics, but then again, propping up an unsustainable airline in hopes that it buys them enough time to kill their competition is not my idea of fair play. If what you're stating is true with respect to an airline that owns no planes and is the B in an A-B-C transaction, then that's certainly a violation of game rules and should be reported - there are detailed logs about plane sale transactions that will allow the administration to make a judgement on the matter. Keep in mind though, that transactions like 1 time sales and sale-leasebacks (or perhaps an A-B-C transaction where B leases to C) are generally OK.

3. Alliances being set to invitation only is more of a matter of housekeeping - it sucks to have the invites tied up in requests as people will just click apply all day long and not even send a message to you asking to join (and they usually have base/hq conflicts that make them ineligible anyway).

4. If you suspect that there are puppet players playing, then those should be reported to be investigated as well. My understanding is that in the past (and if not now), there have been players running other players airlines via a VPN or TOR to obfuscate the actual operator of the airline. Once reported, in theory, that should be able to be investigated and acted upon. I also get suspicious of players that join the entire game a week or two before a game world begins, HQ in a highly contested airport and then succeed like a multi-year veteran of the game....

5. Double posting the same thread in 2 forums annoy the admins here.

Online [ATA] Sunbao

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2016, 06:18:07 PM »
Wow so first you report us on false accusations, then when sami does nothing, because no rules was breaked you then goes to post in here.
But fair enough.

As we also replied Sami, you has never been offered to buy 600 slots, you was asked to join our alliance as our Peking member was going down.
When he bked there would then be 600 slots for you to buy, if you was fast enough and had planes for it. Also you needed to close a base as one of our other members at the time also had that base. And with only one member pr base allowed, we proposed that you closed that and focused on Peking.

You then came back with a list of stuff you wanted for joining us, and you was then the one proposed that we started with transfering slots at 5.00 and then moving foward.
Then when we did not agree your terms you decided to pm sami with false accusations.
No need to deny that, in our reply to Sami your proposing of slot transfer and your other demand was given to him.

Regarding pumping planes its really not normal procedure, but as a new player your probally not aware of the minimum and maximum alliance price system. If i take one of my 721 i have a book value of 7.5 million but my minimum alliance sale price is atm 11.9 million so just on this one plane i will get 4.4 million in profit selling it to a fellow team member, if i like it or not i will have to earn that on the sale, so 20 mill profit on selling planes can easy be reached.
Yes the member that BKed started a new place and is now in our alliance again, nothing odd in that most alliances has a core group of players signing up for the worlds, they of course rejoin when running good in a new spot.

Schro has fine covered  the alliance invite part.

So you admit that you against the rules has had two profiles and runned two companys in here ? that alone should at least give you a warning.
And i can only laugh at you accusations of alliances with invite only is filled up with non excisting members... while you yourself admit you have runned a double profile.

Thanks for your fake accusations and for your pm to get me to reply in here Soho.




Online MRothschild

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2016, 06:53:43 PM »
No matter where or what, there is always drama.  Give it a rest boys.

Soho

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2016, 07:05:41 PM »
I did not even mention ATA alliance - the cat knows whose butter he has eaten . But rather an emotional reaction, and practical confirmation of the assumptions in my post should serve as an occasion of large-scale investigation. I want to believe that this post will serve as a warning to some members of the alliance of misconduct in the future and for fair play.

Online [ATA] Sunbao

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2016, 07:09:08 PM »
I did not even mention ATA alliance - the cat knows whose butter he has eaten . But rather an emotional reaction, and practical confirmation of the assumptions in my post should serve as an occasion of large-scale investigation. I want to believe that this post will serve as a warning to some members of the alliance of misconduct in the future and for fair play.
Nope you did not name the alliance, but as we have nothing to hide, we have no problem at all saying out loud that its ATA your making false accusations against.
Yes lets have a large scale investegation into your operations with multi accounts thats sounds like a good thing, specially as you already has confirmed that you have been running more then one account.

The biggest question is who you really are no one in here belive your a newbie...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 07:13:30 PM by [ATA] Sunbao »

Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2016, 07:21:00 PM »

Offline hmellouli

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2016, 08:06:49 PM »
So based on the written English of soho and sunbao, this seems like a misunderstanding driven by bad linguistic skills. While that's easily resolvable, soho decided to go on an immature Donald trump style rampage.

It's annoying to me that you assume because alliance members generally perform better, they must be cheating. At least in elite, and other alliances I was a member of in the past, We generally play a lot closer to the rules than anyone else. Unfair play generally ruins the game for everyone, so not only is it not practiced, but it'll definitely be noted and reported vigorously.

Alliances are primarily sounding boards where we bounce ideas off of one another. It isn't a vehicle for cheating.

Offline wildavidson

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2016, 08:41:48 PM »
As a former member of A Team alliance I honestly don't beleive a word of this. In my time there I never came across any suggestions of anything like this or anything else which would either be against the rules for the spirit of the game. From an outsider looking in it looks to me like the OP joined the alliance, made demands and when those demands quite rightly were knocked back has then came up with this story. From what Sune has said it sounds like this complaint has been dismissed by Sami so I'm not sure what has to be gained from this thread.

Offline hmellouli

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2016, 09:03:10 PM »
He gained notoriety and lack of credibility!

Online [SC] - King Kong

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2016, 09:39:54 PM »
Elite and Ata are 1 person using 50 vpn's.

Seriously. If I find out someone in my alliance is willingly cheating I'm happy to put this person on our blacklist

Offline CarlBagot

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2016, 10:21:01 PM »
Yea cause I keep having my alternate account bankrupt...  Errr...  Jk...  Gives me a heart attack every time I see Mercure has declared bankruptcy only to see it was Mercury.  ;D

Offline Sami

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2016, 10:25:13 PM »
Okay. ..sigh.

What's up with the cat? Hello there.


Then, to actual matters. The player 'Soho' has contacted us twice during the last week or so, about happenings in GW2.

#1) First of all was the slots thing. He stated that A Team would be controlling 'Business Select' airlines as their 'fake airline' since they've had talk about 600 PEK slots being able to be 'released' for him if he joins their alliance (Soho being based also at PEK). I was copy-pasted some PM messages between the two parties.

While at this point the Business Select was no longer A Team's member, he had been one. But he was going bankrupt soon and had already left the alliance, which is normal. However there were clearly plans to coordinate the time when Business Select was to be closed by the player, and then allowing the other players of the same alliance to grab as many slots he had left as possible. And as I understood they tried to include Soho into this too by having him join the alliance and "promising" these slots to him.. This is on the very borderline of the rules, and this is exactly why the slot quota mechanisms are in place. Sure, you can talk with your former alliance mate and agree when he's gonna close down but if the intention of this is to only get all of his slots back to other alliance airlines, then it's already unfair.

Hence I sent a reminder to A Team's managers about the game's slot rules (before any airline closures had happened). And to my understanding there was no large-scale coordinated slot transfer with this bankruptcy. Player Soho declined to join A Team, don't know more about that.

Where the idea of a "fake" airline did come, I have no idea. The managing player of Business Select is a seemingly normal user account and nothing has pointed to a 'fake' account in any way. He starting at another location after the bankruptcy is completely normal - the previous airline at PEK was indeed failing. And him joining the alliance again is nothing abnormal. Leaving the alliance due to bankruptcy is normal and fully expected (since alliance would get negative points for that .. which isn't a working rule in practice really by the way, will be changed sometime later).

Nothing suspicious here, but a "friendly" reminder was issued to alliance managers before anything happened. (don't know if it would have happened or not but still)


#2) His another contact with us was about the plane sales, for example "A selling to B and B leasing to A" within the same alliance, and question if this is allowed. Response: "Normal one-time plane sales are allowed but selling the same planes back and forth repeatedly is not OK." This is written clearly in the rules too. Sale-leaseback deals are normal in real life too and done like this it's ok, but transferring the same plane or a group of planes back and forth repeatedly is not ok. Alliance plane sales is a big part of the alliances and I haven't seen any benefit in trying to limit the "help" from other alliance members by plane sales - but as long as it's reasonable and one time sales only, so any juggling of the same planes back and forth is not allowed. This is hard to write down in words in the rules, so it's always a bit case-by-case thing. And any attempts to go around the alliance price limits aren't accepted either (= guy leaving the alliance, then using min/max prices to sell the planes, and possibly returning back to the alliance after that).

All plane sale prices are logged by the way, I might add that info to public view too to the a/c history pages since community spots any strange patterns quickly.

In this case I did not investigate the matter as the question sent by him did not specify _any_ details. No idea what game world, what alliance, what planes etc was talked about, so nothing that could have been investigated. So why complain here then? No idea.


#3) Creating multiple accounts is very clearly forbidden in the Terms of Service. Would you really think that there is a foolproof system to prevent registrations if someone already has an account? We don't want that as it causes way more problems (but that said, there are various technical systems in place to prevent this, and other spam/abusive registrations. Mainly problem has historically been the people who try to play the free version over and over again .. 95% of multi-account cases are such). Things are also logged quite extensively, but of course you could run two accounts and might not get caught if you are careful.. But I haven't seen that as any issue here really, only very few cases over many years. But what would you really gain from using a fake account? Planes, slots, what? You have to pay for that too, and if you are caught, it's over for both accounts (= no questions asked, both accounts banned, immediately .. and you might get the other one back some time later then, depends on the case).

If you claim in public that someone has a fake account, then you should have some serious proof. And even if you have it shows a greal lack of taste to toss around such statements before sending any claims, evidence or beliefs to the administration who has the real power to investigate things. Since we do see quite much more than just the IP address. (and besides of the hard technical evidence, usually the play patterns are very revealing too ... let's say you played the free 7-day demo to the end, and then right after that magically a new account is registered which is claimed to be "his brother"....bah.)

So posting such claims to public forum is very bad taste and also actually against our forum guidelines (http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3198.0.html). Also cross-posting the same message to many forums is not good...


Much fuss about almost nothing. And some rather wild associations about fake accounts and other things to which I really don't agree to.


Thread remains open for now, might be closed since probably nothing important to be said here.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 10:29:52 PM by sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2016, 11:18:37 PM »
All plane sale prices are logged by the way, I might add that info to public view too to the a/c history pages since community spots any strange patterns quickly.
Thread remains open for now, might be closed since probably nothing important to be said here.

I suggested this a while ago (adding prices to aircraft history).  This would cut down on work of admins.  Players with complaints can do all the work, and their complaint can be based on facts, rather than suspicions.

Online schro

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2016, 12:18:21 AM »

What's up with the cat? Hello there.


Peter heard something about butter, so he stood up to investigate.

Soho

  • Former member
Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2016, 05:10:32 AM »
Mostly to Sami
Do you believe in coincidences? Dragon lives China and just
in one click 2 more small shadow companies in China dissapear  in spite of new opportunities. These copanies started from the early game were keeping slots in PEK.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 08:38:53 AM by Soho »

Offline jotagrande

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2016, 06:35:04 AM »
Peter heard something about butter, so he stood up to investigate.

Awesome. Simply awesome Schro. Best laugh I've had all week. Peter deserves a whole block of butter for being so well tuned to recognising the real meaning of life.

Offline Sami

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2016, 10:11:28 AM »
Do you believe in coincidences? Dragon lives China and just
in one click 2 more small shadow companies in China dissapear  in spite of new opportunities. These copanies started from the early game were keeping slots in PEK.

Again you are just throwing some strange accusations with no details. What airlines, where, when, etc? If you would expect me to actually investigate something that you have a suspicion of then you really should tell me something more.

I will not discuss the details of individual accounts in public nor in private, but I see exactly and why and when each airline has been closed.

I would strongly advise you to stop accusing other players in public if you have nothing to back these statements.

Online [SC] - King Kong

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Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2016, 11:08:32 AM »
How about adding the info about aircraft sales? Doesn't strike me as a bad idea

Soho

  • Former member
Re: Sub-culture of An alliance and fraud
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2016, 06:41:22 PM »
I am playing another on-line game for several years and have desided to check this one and immediately faced misconduct why?

Alliances purpose in real life - generate profit via code share (same as another game) but here - generate profit via undercover deals with planes//In that game you can buy plane only on open auction and ALL info is open, but here all info is closed, covered wich leads to Alliances became a some kind of trading corporations and manipulate with planes and profits.

Let us make ONLY OPEN AUCTION SALE/LEASE !!!

Im I wrong?

And another important thing to my mind - most of info here closed and when Sami demanding proofs from closed bases it sounds very strange

 

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