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Author Topic: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System  (Read 1841 times)

Offline 11Air

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Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« on: August 28, 2015, 03:33:00 PM »
The current Alliance Score system is killing Spectrum. We are a friendly Society, co-operating, helping new players, educating others into sticking with, and enjoying, this game.
Our score has slumped to negative yet there are no real changes in out airlines performances - please explain, or confirm our Alliance type is not wanted in the game.

Online Sami

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2015, 03:43:20 PM »
Please read about the differences in 'cumulative score' and 'variable score' from the manual, and about how they together form the final score value. http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/Others/Alliances/#Score

The cumulative score of your alliance is a whopping -827 and this is a direct result of actions of your member airlines, like strikes or other such penalties (like missing maintenance). So saying nothing has changed performancewise with the member airlines isn't correct, if the score has been dropping lately. The variable score - based on statistical performance of each airline - is +383 which is reasonable and not the worst of the bunch.

Both score values are visible on the alliance info page.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 03:45:29 PM by sami »

Offline 11Air

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 11:25:29 AM »
My understanding is that only the top 10% in several fields actually contribute to the Alliances score.  So our operation is not going to get any positive marks at all.
We've lost players just because of that negative score. players that were happy with us otherwise, so not at all sure why we should continue.
I've also not been able to fill the Top Spot in our alliance management since the founder went bankrupt some time ago.  I had hoped that was the reason we were plummeting.

So, off to read the suggested material.  More later.

11Air, solvent in 4 GW's and not spoiling the beginner games like some major players.


Offline 11Air

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 11:42:49 AM »
As I thought, the Alliance rules are formatted to make Alliances of the big players succeed. Fine.

My issue is that if you want Alliances then there needs to be a range of services provided.  We take new players, give them basic hints, tips and guidance.  We also have a core of loyal players over a few GW's. 
We have one new player with 9 aircraft at the moment, are you suggesting we kick him out because he's damaging our score?

So I'm a bit stuck now, whether to continue the alliance at all. I don't mind us being last, though we were consistently 5th of the 7 or 8, but this hugely negative score is losing us members and any credibility, and of those that have left, or still remain with us, will struggle to get a place in any other Alliance under the current rules.

By the way, I understand how you assess the 'strength'  of an alliance, it's just this top 10 (sometimes 20)% that makes our operation score so very badly.

Online Sami

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 12:02:34 PM »
As I thought, the Alliance rules are formatted to make Alliances of the big players succeed. Fine.

Not at all... Since the VARIABLE score has seven elements; total sales revenue, profit margin, company image, fleet utilization, transported passengers, load factor and punctuality.

Of these Utilization, Load Factor and Punctuality (and somewhat Profit Margin too) are more easily achieved by a SMALL airline than a large one. Only Company Image and Transported Pax stats are directly in favor of the larger airlines. (but there's still a minimum requirement of having 10 aircraft operational to be included in the score calculation, since the very tiny airlines could be easily used to screw the stats and to manipulate the score .. and normally so small airlines are not yet alliance members even)

And like I already pointed out, the negative total score of your alliance is because of the very bad CUMULATIVE score. It hasn't got anything to do with these stats-based scores which is the "variable" part of the score nor with the size of the alliance or how many planes some member has and so forth.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 12:08:04 PM by sami »

Solemus

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 03:48:47 PM »
As I thought, the Alliance rules are formatted to make Alliances of the big players succeed.

As the founder of Spectrum alliance I went bankrupt and gave the reigns of the alliance over to 11air, just to give him some experience in running an alliance.

I have to admit I have always thought the above quote was true. I still think this way, but it doesn't bother me, I have always wondered how these guys start up at the same time as the rest of us. They always seem to get 'hundreds' of routes and aircraft. It really bugs me sometimes and I guess that it does to the rest of the guys here. I've been playing here for quite a while now and I was so surprised at one game where I was the only player at a major airport and thought 'great,' went to bed. When I came back the next day every slot was taken by one of and I quote 'big players' unquote. It was just a matter of six hours and I was one of the first players in that particular game world. I was totally gobsmacked, my gob hadn't been smacked so hard for ages, how the hell does one do such things in a matter of a few hours? 

Offline dmoose42

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2015, 07:18:22 PM »
I like the term gobsmacked.  :D :D :D

You would have to give more detail as to know what happened for such a thing - but generally the initial growth can be very rapid, which gives airlines a lot of opportunity to succeed (or fail). If someone could really come in and kill an airline that quickly then you probably had some poor choices that you made as well. In looking at your airline in GW1 - definitely going for a niche there - it's still tough to be profitable with the 19 seaters. Price Management is key to be successful flying those.

Anywho - don't mean to be harsh or anything, best of luck at Leeds

Offline tise1983

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2015, 11:24:15 PM »
I would think the large airlines have it just as bad as the small airlines, but you could always put a slot limiter on an airline.  But if you are at a major airport, airlines flying in will take the slots as well...

Offline tise1983

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2015, 11:26:07 PM »
I should not even have wrote that, I for one am against a slot limiter. 

Solemus

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 05:46:43 PM »
I like the term gobsmacked.  :D :D :D
Anywho - don't mean to be harsh or anything, best of luck at Leeds
I should not even have wrote that, I for one am against a slot limiter. 
I would think the large airlines have it just as bad as the small airlines, but you could always put a slot limiter on an airline.  But if you are at a major airport, airlines flying in will take the slots as well...

I am really good at Leeds at the moment thank you dmoose42 got some c checks coming up so we'll see after them  :) Gobsmacked is a good old English term and being 58 years old I am good and old as well  :laugh: :laugh:

tise1983 a slot limiter?? I have heard things like that before and I have to say I am against them as well, but here's an idea for a new game and it's just for a laugh. How about getting all the guys that are real successful in this game and giving them all the crap small airports and small budgets and see how they do then? What dya think guys? How's that for a challenge?   

Offline tise1983

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 06:10:41 PM »
I think that some of the larger players do take smaller less successful airports to give them a challenge.  Zombie Slayer took Vietnam in Game World 4, and he could have done well anywhere.  I don't think that making a big player get punished for being a big player is fair.  I want to be a big player one day also, and hope that I won't be punished if that happens.  (Most likely girlfriend will make me stop playing first)

Offline Crazybernie

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2015, 12:47:20 AM »
Just to add to this discussion the rules have actually changed a lot in favor of smaller alliances and against mega airlines in the last gw4 elite dominated in terms of money and aircraft but we actually lost the alliance score because the second competing alliance focused on better operations for their smaller airlines.

It's also a lot harder then before to out compete airlines that are smaller. Basically nowadays to go bankrupt you really need to make strategic errors. The only area where the bigger airlines the bigger alliances still have an advantage is in the procurement of planes that eases fleet transitions.

And last but not least running a bigger airline or even a mega airline is like running a business and requires a lot of time and attention. Just on hint excel is the most important tool helping me analyze my was performance.

Btw there are already several limits on the amount of slots an airline can procure within a given timeframe in airports that are slot constrained. That one of the things I have to plan for when I intend to make huge expansion.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 12:50:00 AM by Crazybernie »

Solemus

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2015, 01:05:31 PM »
I want to be a big player one day also, and hope that I won't be punished if that happens.  (Most likely girlfriend will make me stop playing first)

As always happens eventually for some

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline 11Air

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 12:36:20 PM »
Quote Sami entry 2:
Not at all... Since the VARIABLE score has seven elements; total sales revenue, profit margin, company image, fleet utilization, transported passengers, load factor and punctuality.

Of these Utilization, Load Factor and Punctuality (and somewhat Profit Margin too) are more easily achieved by a SMALL airline than a large one. Only Company Image and Transported Pax stats are directly in favor of the larger airlines. (but there's still a minimum requirement of having 10 aircraft operational to be included in the score calculation, since the very tiny airlines could be easily used to screw the stats and to manipulate the score .. and normally so small airlines are not yet alliance members even)



My response:-   Some confusion I think on Small Airlines and Airlines operating Small Aircraft.  I've only had very limited success with jets at all, did Ok with four prop aircraft but unable to convert those routes to jets, 100 or 200 seaters.

Utilisation - Small aircraft have limited range therefor they are not suited to night flights so profitable flights are pretty much limited to the premium hours. I've tried. Before 06:00 they can't attract passengers, arriving after 22.00>23.00 hours isn't popular either so it's tough to get much more than 8 hrs a day flying time.

LF - to keep my planes busy I end up flying routes that don't have the LF I'd like, but still pay something toward the aircrafts keep. That's something I could improve on.

Punctuality - I'm fairly generous with turnarounds, usually allowing ten minutes over the 1% delay figure on small aircraft.

Profit Margin (Airline?) - For the airline needs all the above to be good.  Is this being double counted in Scores?
I try to slightly over supply seats on a route with at least 2 aircraft timed to help the pax numbers grow but smaller planes do cost more per PaxMile than bigger ones, only turnaround times make small planes work with lean routes. 
Maybe the fuel burn figure is kg/hour but should be per 'kg/route mile' (better would be 'kg/seat mile').

CI already includes a Pax/week factor, is this being double counted in Scores?


I don't expect to win with my gaggle of Saabs but the negative result, going deeper and deeper into negative, was a considerable shock.  Each airline figure is reasonable, just don't see how we can be scoring negative when 7 airlines are reporting profits and one is not counted (less than ten aircraft).

I'm quite happy when my airlines are making money, the CI should be a factor in Passenger Attraction, but whether that's 5 or 30 (normal range for a small plane airline) doesn't seem to make much difference, the cost of marketing balanced by the small loss in pax.  Getting CI factors up to 50 seems to depend on having planes with more than 60-80 seats. losing those planes brings the CI down again even though profits go up.


So, in summary, I'm not happy with a negative Alliance Score, cannot determine what has caused it, and feel the 'Airline School' isn't going to have a place in the games.  Spectrum in it's present form doesn't seem to have a future.

11Air

Offline schro

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 12:56:15 PM »
Quote Sami entry 2:
<snip> I'm not happy with a negative Alliance Score, cannot determine what has caused it</snip>

11Air

Spectrum's negative score is related to its cumulative score and NOT its variable score. The cumulative score can EASILY be tanked by a single bad apple in the alliance. This has happened to Elite before and many other alliances where one person can go AFK for a couple weeks and his/her airline hits the skids and they aren't there to watch it. Or perhaps someone that didn't leave the alliance when going bankrupt before the maint fines started kicking in. One way you can mitigate this is to communicate to all members the importance of not doing things that result in a negative cumulative score, the importance of communicating needs back to the group and checking on the relative health of each of your members by looking at their stats (you can often tell when an airline is in poor shape and either intervene or boot). Of course, as alliance managers, we do not really have an special tools to determine the cause of cumulative score loss (though, we've been asking for years).

Cumulative score damage is best prevented by good bi-directional communication.....

Quote from: Cumulative Score
The cumulative score is gained or lost on various events, such as member airline bankruptcy (-10 pts), member airline staff strike (-3-5pts), fines for missed maintenance (-3-7pts), and gained for every year the alliance has been operational (+20 pt/yr), and for every member the alliance has (+5 pt/yr).

Solemus

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2015, 09:46:09 PM »
Well put Schro Thank you

Hey 11Air hopefully your confusion is put to rest now? I know that the reason for negative score is very unusual for an alliance in this game but very possible, just like a high score is for some. I am wondering who's causing the negative score within the alliance? Have you checked? Have a look at each of the remaining players, go through everything, that is what I would do matey.
It has been very well explained the reasons for the negative score, now it is up to you to sort it out. You wanted to run my alliance for the experience, now over to you to sort it out my friend 

Offline schro

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Offline tise1983

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2015, 02:49:34 AM »
That's actually amazing, his PAX is down 50%, but his revenue is just down 15%

Online gazzz0x2z

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2015, 07:40:22 AM »
(.../...)
Utilisation - Small aircraft have limited range therefor they are not suited to night flights so profitable flights are pretty much limited to the premium hours. I've tried. Before 06:00 they can't attract passengers, arriving after 22.00>23.00 hours isn't popular either so it's tough to get much more than 8 hrs a day flying time.

LF - to keep my planes busy I end up flying routes that don't have the LF I'd like, but still pay something toward the aircrafts keep. That's something I could improve on.

Punctuality - I'm fairly generous with turnarounds, usually allowing ten minutes over the 1% delay figure on small aircraft.(.../...)

well, small planes can't usually fly during the day, so you have to push them to the maximum during the day. 10 minutes over the 1% delay can be acceptable for LR flights, but you need to fly more your small planes to survive. For a RJ that flights 5 times a day(as my fuerteventura-las palmas heavy schedule), that would be 90 minutes of flight sacrified - and therefore only 4 flights a day. With heavy opposition & low prices, that 5th flight per day is the difference between making money & losing money.

Offline schro

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Re: Team SAMI - Alliance Score System
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2015, 01:45:37 PM »
Here's a hint as to where you cumulative points are going....

Aaaand he was shut down by the banks while still in your alliance. Should cost you another 20 points.

 

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