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Author Topic: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World  (Read 693 times)

Offline jotagrande

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Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« on: June 07, 2015, 11:34:44 PM »
Curious why so many experienced players (as in registered for over a year or more) are playing in the Beginner's Worlds. Look at the standings and you'll see the top 20 players (got bored looking further down the line for a new player) are all experienced, some of them several years, flying out of  EGLL, KORD, KATL, KLAX etc, and dominating like hell. There is no way you guys are honing skills, trying new strategies, etc. I reckon many are just acting like play ground bullies.

I did well in the BW that finished a week or so ago, ending third, but that success had more to do with a few experienced players in the top ranks dropping out when the current BW started. So my 3rd place finish really ought to have been between 6th and 10th. I was aiming for a top 10 finish since I was the 20th airline to start in that BW. And in the end it was only Vortex and me in the top 20 or so that were new to the game, less than 2 months registered (at the time).

I know your argument will be, "well, as in real life you'll have experienced, established airlines to compete with. And we can't let newbies think that this game/simulation is easy. No sense giving them a free ride in BW cuz they'll get smashed when they join the longer GW's." But the point of the BW is for people to learn the nitty gritty bits of this game.  Things like the effects of pricing and turn-around time. What plane to get, roughly how long it'll take to get it, why one plane will work better than another. Becoming good at scheduling, squeezing as much out of your plane as possible while keeping it maintained and with effective departure/arrival times. All that stuff is difficult to learn in the first place and becomes impossible when you have so many experienced players having an all-out brawl with each other to see who can be king of BW. It's called "Beginner's World" for a reason, I'd assume, not "Clash of the Experienced Ego World."

I've seen many new players give up in BW cuz for starters, all the high-traffic airports become saturated with experienced players from day 1, leaving only lesser traffic airports available. And if they do get themselves somewhat established at a decent airport they can't get a single flight into the high traffic ones because the Titans have already over-cooked the demand on those routes.

Sure gives a tough time for brand new players who are just trying to learn the basics. I'm curious how many people find this game, thank the gods that there is such a thing and of such high quality, only to be dismayed and quit altogether because they can't seem to get anywhere. I'd like to think that Sami and whoever else is involved in delivering this fine example of entertainment to us can make enough money from it that they can support themselves and family and take a holiday when needed. In order for that to happen the user base needs to grow to a certain level. And for that to happen I reckon a welcoming atmosphere needs to be provided. Not to say that it isn't welcoming, as many of you experienced folks are very helpful in forums and come across as humorous, good people. But in the BW's I think its a different story. I feel there is a bit too much aggression (as in game play) from the Titans, making it a somewhat unpleasant experience for new people and I bet there are many who leave, never to return. The way I look at it, the more people who play, the more money rolls in for developers, the more time they will have to tweak those little things that will make the game that little bit better, more realistic, and may provide more money for more/better servers, so on and so forth.

I have to give thanks to all the experienced players as I found a lot of useful information in the forums which certainly improved my results. But I still find it a bit crap that I couldn't put a second flight  between CYYZ-EGLL, (for example) with 1000's in demand (until Indian Express dropped out) cuz the Titans already had 10 773's each and could put on another 10 with a simple swipe of the hand, like a King saying, "off with his head, and bring me more wine." (maybe a bit of exaggeration with the numbers, but the point still stands).

Don't get me wrong, I was pretty aggressive at times in the just past BW. I wanted to be THE dominant airline in Canada, and I was. But I think I showed some restraint. CYYC was going to be my next base  but I saw somebody else there, same with CYUL, so I waited a few years before going after them and opened up elsewhere. I certainly fought very hard against anyone who opened up in my established bases, perhaps against newbies, but dammit, I was a newbie too as it was my first GW (after a brief trial in the halfway through BW when I registered).

I guess what I'm getting at is that if the Titans feel they really need to be in BW's, and perhaps you do to mentor people (not sure how that works), then possibly could yous go a little easier on people? Do you have to open in the major airports, open bases in ALL the best places, order ALL the planes, fill up EVERY last demand and them some? Maybe show your real prowess by running out of lessor airports, or show some restraint in opening fewer bases and restraint in not loading up on some of the higher demand routes so newbies can actually get a taste of how to play this game. Let them get the jist of how to successfully schedule, let them get established and then slowly compete. Let them learn, then let them see what it's really all about when they get into the longer GW's.

Perhaps what is needed is a "Clash of the Titan's" GW, where all the experienced guys can battle it out making kabillions of dollars, buying every plane on this planet and those on Mars and leave the BW's to, well, Beginners.

Maybe I'm just bitching because I have just had a Titan open up on my only Intl longhaul route with demand more than 140 demand, over 3500nm, so that is gonna hurt me. But maybe I do have a valid point. Now, I hope I haven't made myself a target in future GW's...lets show this whinger what a real titan can do!!! It's all fun and games.

Nonetheless, awesome bloody game, nothing comes close to comparing. Well done Sami, and all others involved.

Rant over!!!



Offline azdozer

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Re: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2015, 01:18:54 AM »
The non beginner worlds are the same thing....just longer.

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2015, 08:36:06 AM »
- You mentioned EGLL which is a good airport to use my reply as an example, keeping in mind that you tagged 'experienced' as being registered for more than 1 year.
- Many 'experienced' players never get to play at some of the major airports, as the same top players dominate these airports GW after GW.
- So even though a player may be registered for 1 year or 2 years does not mean that they have ever had the opportunity to play out of EGLL, so for them playing put of EGLL for the first time in Beginners World is because 'well they are a beginner in that particular GW sense'
- Now you may not see that as a valid reason but not all players think alike.
- there are many long term players (me included) that have never played out of EGLL and Beginners World is great to play and see if you have a 'winning strategy' or indeed a 'survival strategy' that will work, as you don't get a 2nd chance out of EGLL in the real GW's.

Most normal GW's are very long and can be a PITA if you make a tactical error, therefore many players use Beginners World a a 'trial run' for an airport they intend to select in the next GW. e.g. what planes work best out of Guam, are there enough routes to support a medium and a long haul aircraft type, etc
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:50:40 AM by Kadachiman »

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2015, 09:34:48 AM »
I've seen many new players give up in BW cuz for starters, all the high-traffic airports become saturated with experienced players from day 1, leaving only lesser traffic airports available. And if they do get themselves somewhat established at a decent airport they can't get a single flight into the high traffic ones because the Titans have already over-cooked the demand on those routes.

Not disagreeing with anything you are saying, but most full game worlds are the same. However, it must be disappointing for a beginner to be up against an established player out of LHR who is only there in a BW because they can't make it in a GW. New players should get a chance to be the big boys in a BW as it will take a lot longer to relive that in another GW. I'm sure a taste of success would help player retention.

What Kadachiman said is true that some players experiment and this is understandable if somebody is meddling with small aircraft in Iceland or a regional in Africa in a slightly more benign competitive environment. It makes sense if they are trying something different however experimenting with a magic carpet out of LHR is hardly anything new and a pretty cynical excuse.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Teadaze

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Re: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2015, 07:54:58 PM »
Curious why so many experienced players (as in registered for over a year or more) are playing in the Beginner's Worlds. Look at the standings and you'll see the top 20 players (got bored looking further down the line for a new player) are all experienced, some of them several years, flying out of  EGLL, KORD, KATL, KLAX etc, and dominating like hell. There is no way you guys are honing skills, trying new strategies, etc. I reckon many are just acting like play ground bullies.

disagree, most player who plays in BW are the ones who is similiar to your situation, you kinda know the basic, but somehow you feel you might be a little bit short in playing the major game world in a major airport. Or simply because none of the gameworld is in a good time to start.

Quote
I know your argument will be, "well, as in real life you'll have experienced, established airlines to compete with. And we can't let newbies think that this game/simulation is easy. No sense giving them a free ride in BW cuz they'll get smashed when they join the longer GW's." But the point of the BW is for people to learn the nitty gritty bits of this game.  Things like the effects of pricing and turn-around time. What plane to get, roughly how long it'll take to get it, why one plane will work better than another. Becoming good at scheduling, squeezing as much out of your plane as possible while keeping it maintained and with effective departure/arrival times. All that stuff is difficult to learn in the first place and becomes impossible when you have so many experienced players having an all-out brawl with each other to see who can be king of BW. It's called "Beginner's World" for a reason, I'd assume, not "Clash of the Experienced Ego World." 


I've seen many new players give up in BW cuz for starters, all the high-traffic airports become saturated with experienced players from day 1, leaving only lesser traffic airports available. And if they do get themselves somewhat established at a decent airport they can't get a single flight into the high traffic ones because the Titans have already over-cooked the demand on those routes.

Sure gives a tough time for brand new players who are just trying to learn the basics. I'm curious how many people find this game, thank the gods that there is such a thing and of such high quality, only to be dismayed and quit altogether because they can't seem to get anywhere. I'd like to think that Sami and whoever else is involved in delivering this fine example of entertainment to us can make enough money from it that they can support themselves and family and take a holiday when needed. In order for that to happen the user base needs to grow to a certain level. And for that to happen I reckon a welcoming atmosphere needs to be provided. Not to say that it isn't welcoming, as many of you experienced folks are very helpful in forums and come across as humorous, good people. But in the BW's I think its a different story. I feel there is a bit too much aggression (as in game play) from the Titans, making it a somewhat unpleasant experience for new people and I bet there are many who leave, never to return. The way I look at it, the more people who play, the more money rolls in for developers, the more time they will have to tweak those little things that will make the game that little bit better, more realistic, and may provide more money for more/better servers, so on and so forth.

disagree on this, I view having player who is experienced and participate in beginner's world is a godsend for new player. Especially those who is trying to learn or better prepare themselves in normal game. Most of the time you cannot kill another airline if you and another person is based there. Unless your airline made some serious and critical mistake(that's where the mentor come in to tell you what not to do). The game setting in beginners world is quite hard to bankrupt, you can still learn turn around time and effect of pricing if you have opponent that is dominating the airport/route already(only real exception is if you are in some slot lock airport but there is only a handful of them).

Quote
I have to give thanks to all the experienced players as I found a lot of useful information in the forums which certainly improved my results. But I still find it a bit crap that I couldn't put a second flight  between CYYZ-EGLL, (for example) with 1000's in demand (until Indian Express dropped out) cuz the Titans already had 10 773's each and could put on another 10 with a simple swipe of the hand, like a King saying, "off with his head, and bring me more wine." (maybe a bit of exaggeration with the numbers, but the point still stands).

this is the exact reason why experienced player is needed in the beginner's world. back then when it was restricted to new player only it is rare to see route that is being overload, everyone will hold each other hand and only fill it to 90% demand, and then make tones of money... Most of the time they will think adding more demand when it past 110% supply is a terrible idea. And when they think they are almighty and ready to test the water with the real game world, they go to a new game world and start in ORD/LAX, or even a lessor airport such as yyz(which tbh I think it is much harder to play) and then proceed to get raped at early stage of the game.

Many of the route they fly will become like this:


What most new player fail to notice is when you have 300-500 player in a gameworld, many popular airport(and sometimes non popular one) will start with the maximum allowed airline in an airport(which is 8-10 depend which airport). Many money and popular route will get overloaded to 400-800% at one point... new player who were USED TO the 100% not adding route thought suddenly will start to think, 'wtf did I spend 3 months of my life thinking I am prepping myself, but in the end I need to relearn the whole damm game because the environment is so different?!'  This actually happen when the beginner's world is restricted to new players only, almost everyone pretty much had to bankrupt multiple times,getting stuck and hope a mentor will pick them up and relearn the whole game(and note.. it is harder to find a mentor in real game since mentor is not allow to teach if they are participating in that game.) because the learning curve on this game is quite high(to do it right). Some may do better then other, but many player failed to make this transition and quit the game.

Quote
I guess what I'm getting at is that if the Titans feel they really need to be in BW's, and perhaps you do to mentor people (not sure how that works), then possibly could yous go a little easier on people?

you cannot mentor people if you are playing in that gameworld.

Quote
Do you have to open in the major airports, open bases in ALL the best places, order ALL the planes, fill up EVERY last demand and them some? Maybe show your real prowess by running out of lessor airports, or show some restraint in opening fewer bases and restraint in not loading up on some of the higher demand routes so newbies can actually get a taste of how to play this game. Let them get the jist of how to successfully schedule, let them get established and then slowly compete. Let them learn, then let them see what it's really all about when they get into the longer GW's.

refer back to what i said earlier, imo it is a good thing they are opening in popular base, but most airport ESPECIALLY in north america cannot be single hand owned by 1 player, invasion is almost garentee especially due to more relaxed setting.

Quote
Perhaps what is needed is a "Clash of the Titan's" GW, where all the experienced guys can battle it out making kabillions of dollars, buying every plane on this planet and those on Mars and leave the BW's to, well, Beginners.

Maybe I'm just bitching because I have just had a Titan open up on my only Intl longhaul route with demand more than 140 demand, over 3500nm, so that is gonna hurt me. But maybe I do have a valid point. Now, I hope I haven't made myself a target in future GW's...lets show this whinger what a real titan can do!!! It's all fun and games.

clash of the titan GW already exist, it is usually being held at gameworld that starts in 1990. And imo usually it is one of the toughest setting in all of the game world era.



Regardless how ready you will be, once you step into a long game world you are almost certain that you will start the bankrupt train, you may have all the stuff done right according to the manual or tutorial, you may be already scoring #1 rank in beginner world. But this game is based on other player, not how well you can play. And when you need to press that bankrupt button to restart, don't feel bad, Many have done it multiple times(I still do it even after 2 years in game).  I have also never attempted to play in ORD/ATL/LHR or many of the  most popular airport in game, and really you don't need those airport to be able to dominate(if I remember correctly, in GW1 the 2 highest Airline value airline is from istanbul and LAX, while LHR airline at third).

Last piece of advise when you join a real game is to apply for a mentor asap, you will need it. And if given an opportunity join an alliance. Good luck.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:19:03 PM by Aoitsuki »

Offline jotagrande

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Re: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 01:12:50 PM »
Well, like I said, maybe I was just bitching cause a Titan had just opened up on a good route for me, and since then Titan 2 has opened up. Maybe I have an actual point that doesn't need agreement or disagreement.

To clarify: I define experienced player by the achievements listed in their profile, not just time on board. A person can be experienced but not necessarily a veteran player, veterans are all experienced. That's what I didn't define properly. From the little experience I have I'd say the veterans play nice in the BW, some of the experienced don't.

I realise the longer GW are much different, exponentially more difficult. One look at the forum with tell you this, looking at a lot of the forums will tell you this again and again and again, so anybody getting into the real games thinking it's just a longer BW didn't do their research and maybe they deserve to fail. What is very clear from the forums is the biggest problem in this game is airlines growing far too big. The Titans. Many game changes have slowed them, but eventually people adapt. So the next thing to do is to just ASK them to at least take it a bit easier in the BW where new people get introduced to the game. All players will make the choice in this stage of their playing "career" to either stay and try some more or just give up, and IMO early on isn't the place to put them off. I got the feeling that many would just give up. Sami, you got the numbers on that? Anyway, I started playing airline games with AeroBiz for Super Nintendo (showing my age), and I've been dreaming for a simulation/game as appropriately complex, as appropriately challenging, with real people to play against as this one is. This is the best one out there. But a big impression I got in my little time here is that there are some players who just can't seem to relate to what its like being a newbie, and don't play nice. I'm thinking, "do I really want to bother, even though I've been wanting a game like this since leg warmers and shoulder pads were in. And if I feel like that given how much I wanted this then perhaps many others do, maybe too many do and to the detriment of the games sustainability." Maybe I'm just a sissy who needs to grow a pair! And hey, I realise that not everybody is gonna play nice, that's the nature of getting a group of people together to do something. Someone always seems to have to be the biggest, baddest mofo out there...but in a BW.


I just wanted have my say of what I've experienced, but I should've taken a deeper breath before writing...so as not to offend anyone. Sorry about that.

As I read back my first paragraphs from original post I see that they infer that I have a problem with many (perhaps even all) experienced players in BW. So I'll clarify that too. I do not. I was referring to the ones who go for world domination which as I've said, I think is at the expense of new users learning the basics, or advanced basics, and their desire to stick around and that is a valid observation since I am a new user... but I'm certainly not against all of the experienced players, nor even most of them in BW's. I started out a little miffed, then cooled down halfway through...forgot what I'd written above but did mellow a bit, even acknowledging that I may just be bitching, "Rant over". Anyway, I thought I had got my point out as I expressed my appreciation for the things I've learned from experienced/veteran players yet felt the game play of Titans is a detriment to new learners and perhaps those guys could either take it easy in BW or play somewhere else so us newbies could get a better handle on things. That's basically it. But looking at responses I see I didn't get it out right.

However, the beliefs of any players who have experience as to whether I'm right or wrong is irrelevant. You are not beginners any more. The game is different than when you were beginners. Things are different in the game now because players have gone through the stages up to now, made comments, pushed points and changes have been made.

Without those voices this game likely would have gone the way I'll go when I enter my first, second, third long GW.

But right now I am speaking with the voice of a new player, at this stage in development of the game, who says that I think a few, only a few, experienced players are making things tougher than they ought to be, and if ya gotta be James Cameron, you know, "King of the World", well, can you do it in another GW? I'll see you in the "Clash of the Titans" world some day, cause I also want to see just how much money I can make, how huge a fleet I can have etc. Yet I also want to see how I'll do starting out with props and low demand, making the transition to jets, dealing with D checks, fleet renewal, all that stuff. And I still have more somewhat advanced learning to do.

Maybe we need a Beginner World and Intermediate World. Maybe this has been done and didn't work. Maybe what is needed is long GW's with a lower player cap per game instead of 300-500. Therefore more GW's, starting so that there are none running in the same decade. Gives more options for people when to start and less likely to have horribly difficult numbers to compete against. GW's more oriented along the real world where, for example, a UK based airline cannot open in EDDF, LFPG or EHAM because their respective governments won't allow it in real life.  I know opening EU bases doesn't come into effect until later in GW's. Perhaps an introduction of a "subsidiary" feature can be put in place (different from an alliance) where a UK airline wanting to break into the German market finds a suitable player in the market, PM's them and agree on a percentage of the profit/loss sharing on those new routes. They still run separate airlines. Experienced people could work with beginner's, beginners with beginners, experienced with experienced, whatever suits. That seems more real to me. And as far as upping the reality, what about losing a plane to accidents? Does that happen? Does anybody randomly loose a plane in bad weather, lowering CI, etc. In 70 years almost every airline loses a plane. What about wars, volcanoes, labour disputes?  Maybe it takes someone honest to be paid to sit there and monitor all the games and manually throw in a dramatic event to bring people getting unrealistically out there back down to Earth.

I know these sorts of things have been talked about in other forum threads and as I see it it basically comes down to the time and effort it takes to programme all that stuff and the limited time developer(s) have. Which then brings me to what is really my main point of this whole thread...best not to put new people off the game right from the start. The more users there are the more money rolls in and the better chance we have of getting this incredible piece of work even better, more realistic, which is something I feel from reading many many forum threads that most people are looking for... as realistic a simulation as we can get. So yeah, what this is really, really all about was relating to yous how I, as a newbie, feel about what it's been like getting into this game/community/world, at this particular stage of development. Have you created a welcoming place or an exclusive club? Just so yous know, I'm not just some guy who showed up on the scene with lots to say without any clue.  I read through a mountain of forum stuff, figured out what people are generally wanting, and came to the conclusion that it's as realistic a simulation as we can get. And to do that I reckon we just need a way to make sure developers have the incentive to put even more time into coding such realism, which I figure just needs more money so that more people can spend more time on it and not have their partners give them a hard time about spending so much time "playing airplanes". A healthy paycheck will ease the grief given, but still won't get anybody out of doing the dishes!!!

I just have one little bitch here...Aoitsuki, What's the point of offering a BW if some people have taken it upon themselves to show newbies that the real GW's are not as easy as BW and play hard? You've just taken away the BW and made it into a short normal world, you've moved the goal posts. The reality here is that anybody who gets into this game ought to have to choice to enter a long GW whether they are ready or not. It's kinda like if you were a professional soccer player and you saw some children kicking a ball around but you decided, "well if you are going to get into the professional leagues someday it's gonna be nothing like the children's league, so I'm gonna get in there and show you little people how to do it." Geez man, let people play the little league games and work their way up. Do you big boys always have to be on the field showing the little kids what it's gonna be like, hurting a few with aggressive play, breaking a few legs, leaving the children crying because "it's gonna be like that in the big league?" Well guess what, if we are in the BW we're not in the big league yet, and if we get in the big league before we are ready that's our problem. It's much better to let people have a try at something an give up when it gets too much for them later on rather than give them a bad experience on the little league field. And to tell me that when I enter a real game "to get a mentor asap, I will need it", is pure arrogance. Maybe I do, will you be my mentor? Do all mentor's tell their charges how to play the same way? Is there only one way to play this game? And if so are we all meant to be clones? Are all mentor's right?  I may not need a mentor, maybe I do. Let me decide. I may do well on my own, or maybe I'll fail. But let me figure it out. What I do know is that I spent a lot of time looking at other players, their achievements, what they were doing in games, fleet choice, route times blah blah blah. I read a lot of forums, the manual, Curse's "manual". There is a wealth of information there, combined with my own triumphs and mistakes, my own personal history in the business. I feel like I've already been mentored by plenty of people cuz I'm not a dummy. I'e done plenty of research. I realise there are going to see planes I've never used before, situations I've never dealt with before and I'll choose how I deal with those.  In real life, real airline bosses fail, and so it should be in this simulation. At least here, if we have a few dollars/euros, we can try and try again until we succeed or get bored.

So, those of you who are "playing nice" know who you are and can rest easy at night. Those who are not being as welcome in the BW's as I, IMHO think, well, I suppose you can sleep well too, but hey, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. If this game has to close because its no longer sustainable, then we've all lost something really good. If it's too exclusive that few want to join then that's a shame as well. If I'd developed this game I'd want loads and loads of people to be involved in this awesome cool thing, and have fun even though being challenged. Perhaps I'm being mellodramatic and don't know what I'm talking about, perhaps I'm right on the money, perhaps I'm half right or somewhere in between, it doesn't really matter. Just a new guys' opinion. That's okay, init?

Again, sorry for any offense caused. Maybe I shoulda got the peace pipe out before writing original message instead of halfway through. 

May you all have wind beneath your wings...oh god, did I just quote Barbara Streisand?

Jono
 

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2015, 01:22:54 PM »
jotagrande...does the name stand for jot down a grand post in quality and quality :-)
I am looking forward to your airline press releases when you get into a Game World

Offline Helix

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Re: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 07:52:45 PM »
Just wanted to add my opinion on the so called "pro's" and "experts"  :P

I'm playing in GW1 from day one out of ORD and from what I could observe there is no unique "edge" one can have except for having a massive amount of time at hand to always be online to grab slots and airplanes which is what it's all about for the first decade or two.   

If someone is in the top 10, it's because there is a certain way to play this game.
- Have enough time
- Large HQ airport
- Small airplanes (rather 3x 767-200 than 1x 747, that kind of stuff)
- max. 3 fleet groups active at any time

It's a whole different story as soon as we get city based demand, different pax classes, expanding airports, HUBs (flight-connections), IFE and food, more options for seats, new pricing models, etc.
When that is all implemented and someone dominates it'd really mean that guy has the right mix but right now it's all relatively easy and simple.

EDIT: I guess my post is a little off topic but I thought it still fits in for perspective.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 07:59:43 PM by Helix »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Experienced players dominating Beginner's World
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2015, 09:11:03 PM »
Jotagrande,

I agree with your points.  I don't think it's fair for experienced players to enter Beginners world and dominate airports.

Maybe the suggestion of Intermediate world might work.  The world might be shorter similar to Beginners world, and experienced players may play as hard as they wish to.

Another suggestion might be to have a limit of 1 airline per airport in Beginners worlds.

 

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