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Author Topic: [-] GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue  (Read 597 times)

Offline Tim

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[-] GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« on: May 11, 2015, 12:59:52 PM »
I have 3 daily flights LAX-OGG with 55 minutes time interval.

The route itself is 600-800 pax daily, so, according to documentation, 55 minutes time interval should be fine.

My RI is 100, CI is 90, but LF is still about 30-40%. And other airlines with just 2 daily flights has much bigger market share in this route.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 03:32:43 PM by sami »

Offline Sami

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Re: GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2015, 01:40:33 PM »
Don't see any clear reason either myself. Any chance to space out the flights a bit more and see if that has any effect on it? (ie. >1 hr)

Online schro

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Re: GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2015, 02:08:24 PM »
I would imagine that going to 1 hour would 100% solve the loads.

I would also guess that the lower demand days are certainly more of an issue than the high demand days. I.e. if the system is looking for greater than 800 to support 55min, then only Monday/Friday will be good versus the other days that are sub-800. See anything like that?

Realistically, I've found that I have to use 1hr spacing out to 1500-2000 demand for things to work right though...

Offline Flightman

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Re: GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2015, 02:26:18 PM »
Is your plane "too small for the route"? - I have seen that kind effect if is...
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Online schro

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Re: GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2015, 02:40:33 PM »
Is your plane "too small for the route"? - I have seen that kind effect if is...

It's a domestic route and shouldn't be too small. It would be too small if it was marked as a short haul international though....

Offline Tim

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Re: GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 02:36:51 PM »
Don't see any clear reason either myself. Any chance to space out the flights a bit more and see if that has any effect on it? (ie. >1 hr)

Yeap! That worked for me. Updated all three flights to 1h space. Unfortunately, after that update last flight arrives at 04:50 instead of 05:00.

Sami, we really need more info about min space between flights: kind of a table demand - min. space, here in forums. At least, approximate data. Because now it takes too much time to open new rote, assign it to aircraft and then make a research =)

Offline Sami

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Re: GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 03:32:38 PM »
Here's the info: http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26356.msg165612/topicseen.html#msg165612

Basically always aim for 60+ mins intervals. In this case I believe the 50-55 is just on the borderline causing some of the penalty to appear, but not all of it.

Online schro

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Re: GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 06:14:40 PM »
Here's the info: http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26356.msg165612/topicseen.html#msg165612

Basically always aim for 60+ mins intervals. In this case I believe the 50-55 is just on the borderline causing some of the penalty to appear, but not all of it.

I'm not understanding the [-] though. The "design" of the internal as stated in that forum post is routes of 400 or less should be at 60+ minutes and 1000 at 35 minutes, with a linear progression. I've approximated the linear progression (on the conservative side) below, which tells me that a 600-800 demand route can handle a 55 minute frequency without penalty at all. However, from an implementation perspective, he's getting nuked from bloody orbit as the nerf cannon operator is not following the stated design. I see this sort of thing all the time, and quite honestly, the implementation of this penalty does NOT match the design. I routinely get nerfed for 50-55 minute separation on pax routes that are over 1000.

400 - 60
500 - 60
600 - 55
700 - 50
800 - 45
900 - 40
1000 - 35

It's almost like the values are getting calculated based upon the raw demand for the destination before it is adjusted to the size of the game world. Either that, or there are some roaches in the walls somewhere... time to hire that exterminator...

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: [-] GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 06:24:41 PM »
In recent game worlds, it does seem like the flight interval calculator (or whatever you want to call it) is beyond drunk. The penalty, as you say, should be on a linear scale, and you allude to the fact that it should not be a hard penalty in a previous post. Yet, in previous games I ran 40 minute separation on 2200 pax/day routes with no problem but in GW1, for example, I am seeing signs of overlapping flights on JFK-MCO, for example, at about 2200-2400pax/day. In GW2, similar routes from SHA (CAN, for example) seem to be operating just fine at 40 minute separation at about 1900 pax/day.

Maybe an update to the flight separation rule is in order? make the penalty on a scale like the too small penalty, where "just a little" too close brings, say, a 10% penalty and if flights are more than 20% over the separation limit get the full penalty? As mentioned in other threads, if changes are made, the separation limit should take into account suitable departure/arrival options and lower the departure intervals accordingly. For example, JFK-LHR departures are limited to a few hours in the morning and a few in the evening making it virtually impossible to serve the full demand on this route even with "proper" iarcraft.
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Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: [-] GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 06:27:23 PM »
Or, to make thins simple, just add a line saying what the minimum flight separation on a route is on the open route screen. I understand the reasoning behind the rule, it is a fair rule, but take the guess work out of it and put the info out there for all to see. TBH this hurts new airlines far more then "old" players....
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Online gazzz0x2z

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Re: [-] GW3: LAX-OGG strange LF issue
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2015, 06:27:56 AM »
Or, to make thins simple, just add a line saying what the minimum flight separation on a route is on the open route screen. I understand the reasoning behind the rule, it is a fair rule, but take the guess work out of it and put the info out there for all to see. TBH this hurts new airlines far more then "old" players....

This.

We need feedback. Same for the "too small" penalty or for the "tech stop" penalty - we have no clue of the impact. As it's a game and not real life, we don't have indirect clues, only what the system gives us. The same uncertainty than for pax estimation could even be given.

"31% penalty for being too near of another flight. Accuracy 84%"
"42% penalty for a tech stop. Accuracy 92%"
"18% penalty for being too small. Accuracy 68%".

something like that.(yeah, that flight would not be a good idea, but it would be good to know why in detail)

 

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