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Author Topic: Exponential increase of staff cost  (Read 967 times)

Offline Jona L.

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Exponential increase of staff cost
« on: April 10, 2015, 05:31:15 PM »
Hello,

it seems that with increasing airline the staff requirement for each new aircraft grows exponentially.
I am not quite sure how much this is working as intended, but this is getting ridiculous.

I made one 7-day-schedule for 767 in GW4 in my HQ (MAD), and afterwards needed almost 1700 new staff members (1690 to be exact).
I'm not sure how far from reality one must be, but 1690 people for 7 aircraft? Boeing needs less people to build 70 of those planes.

To give a relation... 1700 more people comes back as USD 13.1M/mth. So each of the plane needs to earn $500,000 per
week just to break even over staff.

I can understand that staff demands increase with growing fleet/airline size, but there should be some sort of "sanity limit".
Obviously the design of the staff cost increase was made with the shorter 30yr GWs in mind rather than the long GWs where
people are more likely to get near 1.000 aircraft.

Any thoughts, folks or comments, Sami?


Fun fact asides.... Adding a 7-day-schedule in FCO (base) adds 7M to staff per month... in MAD (HQ) it is 13.1M. I would have
expected it to be the other way around, as aircraft outside of HQ need some weird staff in the HQ swinging their balls.


cheers,
Jona L.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 05:49:41 PM by [Remover of SkyConnect] Jona L. »

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2015, 06:13:18 PM »
very large aircraft tur with a little bit more than 9 crews. That's realistic.

767 have a crew of 2+8. so you need 90 crews per plane. A 7-day schedule needs 7 planes, therefore, you're at 650 flying crew.

But it's not all. You need people on the ground to guide the planes, to handle the luggage, to manage the routes, to make the marketing, to sell tickets, to manage irate customers, to manage all those workers, to repair the planes, etc...

Therefore, 1700 people is not so surprising.

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2015, 06:22:13 PM »
very large aircraft tur with a little bit more than 9 crews. That's realistic.

767 have a crew of 2+8. so you need 90 crews per plane. A 7-day schedule needs 7 planes, therefore, you're at 650 flying crew.

But it's not all. You need people on the ground to guide the planes, to handle the luggage, to manage the routes, to make the marketing, to sell tickets, to manage irate customers, to manage all those workers, to repair the planes, etc...

Therefore, 1700 people is not so surprising.

I don't need that many more ground handlers or anything, because the workload spreads out further over existing staff. And if you already have 450 aircraft of that type, you don't need full staff again.

With 1000 aircraft in operation, I doubt that for every next 7 planes I need 5 more high-level management!?!?

And considering that on earlier schedules I needed not nearly as many new people.

I would think more of 500-600 new people (and that would already be excessive).
To handle 1 767 turnaround you need 5 people to handle the baggage (including the loading of the aircraft), + 3 persons for check-in and gate (check-in staff moves to gate after check-in closes) you basically need 4 shifts of these people (to cover the day + free time for each of them) -> 32 ground staff. 2 technicians per plane at maximum (rather 10 for all 7 planes).
I would think more like 50-60 flight crews rather than 90, so make that 350-400 flying crew.


To sum up:
400 flight crew
32 ground crew
10 mechanics
50 office staff (incl. route strategies, customer services, etc.)
--

less than 500 total crew.

The above maths is already the "deluxe edition" absolute perfect version. In day to day operation you have less than half the ground staff, and flying staff is little different.

cheers,
Jona L.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 06:46:54 PM by [Remover of SkyConnect] Jona L. »

Offline [SC] - King Kong

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2015, 06:27:22 PM »
I don't need that many more ground handlers or anything, because the workload spreads out further over existing staff. And if you already have 450 aircraft of that type, you don't need full staff again.

With 1000 aircraft in operation, I doubt that for every next 7 planes I need 5 more high-level management!?!?

And considering that on earlier schedules I needed not nearly as many new people.

And Jona knows about ground staff since he used to be part of it....

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2015, 06:45:31 PM »
My point being is, that staff per airplane increases with the amount of aircraft flying. And that increase doesn't stop anywhere.

As a remark asides.... next new schedule was 1770 new staff (80 more than last new schedule). That is another 13.3M more per month....

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2015, 06:49:25 PM »
To pile on...

Delta Airlines (one of the largest airlines in terms of fleet size) has 810 aircraft and needs 74,000 staff...
I have 900 planes in operation (120 still unscheduled ::) ) and need 124,641 staff. Notice the difference?

Online Sami

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2015, 08:08:47 PM »
The staff costs have been modelled so that the overall cost of staff vs other airline expenses is realistic. (Staff costs are around 20-35% of all costs)

Since in AWS all areas are done in-house (handling, maintenance etc) the staff figures itself cannot be directly compared (although the crew numbers itself have been modelled directly after real airlines).

Further, nothing in the staff side has changed in a year+, so this is not a bug.


However... Would you compare for fun how big a difference it is if you do NOT use the 7 day system? Since it has never ever been originally intended to be used, and the direct number of routes is one modifier in the staff amount calculations...
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 08:11:00 PM by sami »

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2015, 08:16:11 PM »
However... Would you compare for fun how big a difference it is if you do NOT use the 7 day system? Since it has never ever been originally intended to be used, and the direct number of routes is one modifier in the staff amount calculations...

Well a 737-800 in normal scheduling requires ~1.2M/mth more in staff. I know large a/c vs. VL a/c.... but still a major difference

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2015, 08:17:32 PM »
I will check with a 767 on basic schedule... give me 10 mins :)

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2015, 08:24:01 PM »
I will check with a 767 on basic schedule... give me 10 mins :)

1 daily route on a 767 to a class 3 airport is 190 more staff (didn't hire new personell, so can't tell how much that would cost).

but 190 * 7 planes would be 1330, not 1770...

Offline [ATA] StefanPeturs

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2015, 07:30:28 AM »
Good morning and good post Jona, I fully agree with you on this point.

As well I would like to ask about increases in salary by about 10m a week with all the settings in manual, how is that possible?  no routes were added at any time so that is not the case.

This is in GW2, and I am operating about 900+ aircraft

Online Sami

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2015, 10:12:00 AM »
As well I would like to ask about increases in salary by about 10m a week with all the settings in manual, how is that possible?  no routes were added at any time so that is not the case.

I don't see such thing at your airline..

Offline [ATA] StefanPeturs

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2015, 10:49:53 AM »
here is a copy  of the difference between weeks 43-44

-327 677 580 USD   -317 054 913 USD   -317 054 913 USD

Online Sami

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2015, 10:54:14 AM »
Ah yes, there. If you look at the chart/graph of the staff costs, there is a bit of variation all the time, so some changes have happened. Like pilot re-training to a different class?

Offline [ATA] StefanPeturs

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2015, 11:04:52 AM »
no, i have been cancelling routes and not adding any, and all settings in manual, both salary and adding staff...

Online Sami

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2015, 11:21:59 AM »
I do see from the logs that some actions (save action) has been made on the staff page by you at least on 28.10.  There have been some route/schedule changes too at the same time and new routes like KIAH-SAEZ. Cannot see any closer on what has been changed or saved on the staff page but definitely some user actions have been done.

Same also on 30.10 and 31.10, several times where changes on the staff page were made/saved.

(= cannot see any closer what has been done, but something has been done, so the change is because of some user action has been made)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 11:28:12 AM by sami »

Offline [ATA] StefanPeturs

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2015, 11:27:20 AM »
yes, I have been firing staff mostly, but the cost of retraining (lower class aircraft) should be in staff training right?

that day i think i fired 10 high level management....

Offline knobbygb

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Re: Exponential increase of staff cost
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2016, 05:47:38 AM »
I've generally noticed that with a mature airline, the number of staff required for each aircraft (certainly in the medium and large capacity) is similar to the number of seats on the aircraft (approx. 168 for an A320 and 66 for a Q400, for example). This doesn't really seem to tally with reality - there is no economy of scale at work here. The staff requirements are not "exponential" as the OP suggested, but certainly a lot closer to linear than they aught to be.  Having said that I believe staff costs are actually quite reasonable as whole and any moves to reduce the number of staff would need to be balanced by higher salaries anyway, to keep the game realistic.  As already stated, the fact that everything is done "in-house" does mean that a true comparison with the real world cannot be made. So, it's not totally realistic, but it kinda works.  In the next game I plan to keep more detailed statistics of exactly how the staff numbers grow.

 

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