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Author Topic: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference  (Read 973 times)

Offline maxishrek

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Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« on: January 17, 2015, 01:49:46 PM »
Embraer 190 - 100 seats vs. Ebraer 195 - 104 seats. Really?

Even wikipedia article on E-jet family states 98 vs. 108 seats in typical Y configuration!!!

Does anybody has expalanation to that?

Offline Sami

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2015, 02:08:52 PM »
The aircraft capacity information is added directly based on the documentation and brochures from the manufacturer. (and the computer-generated 'factory default' seat configurations in the game shouldn't be stared too much since they are not the same to some wikipedia's figures)

Offline maxishrek

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 07:16:28 PM »
Sami, with all due respect, you do realize that in that case in reality E195 would never see any orders in real life? Fuel consumption difference of 100 kg/h extra and extra acquisition costs would never justify 4 additional economy seats. Economics doesn't work this way.
And Sami, indeed, your assumption on the seat count of E195 is not based on official Embraer configuration charts.

E190 is correct - 100 seats: http://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/AircraftPDF/E190_Cabin.pdf

But in E195 there is a huge mistake (instead of 116 seats, you have 104!!!): http://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/AircraftPDF/E195_Cabin.pdf

Offline Sami

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 07:59:10 PM »
The E195 is configured to have a max capacity of 122 seats, as per real docs. That's the figure the system uses for the basis of all calculations.

Online robsalmon

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2015, 08:59:09 PM »
Also another problem i see with the embraer product range is the 120er brassilia range ,its 620nm-650nm in game but in real world its true range excluding reserves stands at about 820nm -850 nm .

Offline maxishrek

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2015, 09:07:26 PM »
The E195 is configured to have a max capacity of 122 seats, as per real docs. That's the figure the system uses for the basis of all calculations.

Sami, but if you look at Embraer documentation, even that number is wrong. It is 124 for Embraer 195.

I understand that you use some simplified algorithm to set factory default seat count, so that you don't need to set it from model to model, but in case of Embraer 190/195 it does not work and it is far off from the reality and destroys completely economics of a certain aircraft model and you just don't want to admit it.
For many years I played the game and never complained and as aviation enthusiast I admire the work you've done through all those years. But your failure to admit a certain flaw in the gameplay just doesn't serve the purpose of improving the realism of the game for everybody.

Offline Sami

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2015, 02:48:30 AM »
Sami, but if you look at Embraer documentation, even that number is wrong. It is 124 for Embraer 195.

122 according to the E195 marketing material from 2013 when that data was last updated (have that PDF right here - just checked to be sure...). Don't know if it has been changed since, but 122 is what my last checked/saved docs say.


Also another problem i see with the embraer product range is the 120er brassilia range ,its 620nm-650nm in game but in real world its true range excluding reserves stands at about 820nm -850 nm .

EXCLUDING reserves. Which is entirely different thing than the "real world operations" range. All AWS range values have necessary alternate and reserve fuels included - which usually all manufacturer payload/range charts have already incorporated automatically (actually rather surprising that some manufacturer even reports a "no reserves" range, as that's really not useful at all .. as in all commercial operations you need certain [rather large] reserves at all times).

Compared the E120 performance brochure info to game data and there's about ~50nm difference in ranges at max, but nothing more. Ranges for ER should be: about 300 nm at max payload, about 1450 nm at about 1800kg payload and about 1600 nm at no payload/fuel capacity limit.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 03:04:57 AM by sami »

Offline maxishrek

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2015, 01:05:56 PM »
122 according to the E195 marketing material from 2013 when that data was last updated (have that PDF right here - just checked to be sure...). Don't know if it has been changed since, but 122 is what my last checked/saved docs say.

So it is max seats in dense config. And how many seats in standard configuration does you E195 documentation state?

Offline Sami

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2015, 11:35:06 PM »
Shows 108. (don't know where that 124 is from, as I don't see it anywhere?)

For AWS I would probably use something like 8x HD C and 112x HD Y. Since the routes flown by that type usually are not so long that having STD seat would not bring in any very meaningful advantage.

And yes, using STD seats will give you a 104 total in the game like you said, but it is purely impossible to start adjusting the seat configurations for every model individually to match the manufacturer's suggested configs (will not happen ever as it would be a logistical nightmare. There are about 500 planes in the database....). Each seat type in AWS have certain dimensions and the system calculates the config based on the a/c size and dimensions+number of seats selected, and in most of the cases it is not the same as the manufacturer's config, since the seat size and pitch is different in every a/c.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 11:46:54 PM by sami »

Offline Teadaze

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 07:36:56 AM »
if E195 has 122 seat it will really be game breaking :D

Offline maxishrek

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 02:44:34 PM »
Sami, can you check the links below. Those are PDFs with official Embraer cabin configurations from Embraer website.

I posted those before:

Embraer 195
http://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/AircraftPDF/E195_Cabin.pdf

Embraer 190
http://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/AircraftPDF/E190_Cabin.pdf

Sami, please check those links. It is official Embraer website.



Sami, with all due respect, you do realize that in that case in reality E195 would never see any orders in real life? Fuel consumption difference of 100 kg/h extra and extra acquisition costs would never justify 4 additional economy seats. Economics doesn't work this way.
And Sami, indeed, your assumption on the seat count of E195 is not based on official Embraer configuration charts.

E190 is correct - 100 seats: http://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/AircraftPDF/E190_Cabin.pdf

But in E195 there is a huge mistake (instead of 116 seats, you have 104!!!): http://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/AircraftPDF/E195_Cabin.pdf

Offline maxishrek

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Re: Unrealistic Embraer 190/195 passenger capacity difference
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2015, 02:51:13 PM »
if E195 has 122 seat it will really be game breaking :D

122 seats in dense configuration, with bad passenger comfort is OK. It is a strategical choice to make depending on competition and fares strategy.

But max 104 seats in standard configuration (just 4 seats more than E190) and 100 l/kg more of fuel consumption + 300 miles range penalty versus E190 in STD config + 3 million additional acquisition cost. E195 would never see a single order and none would ever be produced by Embraer.


 

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