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Poll

What is the best (=highest profit generation potential) regional jet in 2004-2020 game years?

Embraers E-170/190
47 (52.2%)
Bombardier CRJ700/900
18 (20%)
Antonov 148/158
3 (3.3%)
Fokker 70/100
8 (8.9%)
Sukhoi SSJ100 - 70/95
14 (15.6%)

Total Members Voted: 78

Author Topic: Best regional jet vote  (Read 2424 times)

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2014, 08:50:00 PM »
Lemon,
"most profitable" is the best measure. If you are anywhere around managing business, you would agree with that. No one cares about turnover, efficiency, satisfaction, etc by itself - its all about how all those convert into the ability to deliver profit. If aircraft (product, service, company, etc) is great on some features but is not making profit - those features are irrelevant. Thus profit generation potential is the ultimate measurement of "best"

Most profitable is important at a macro level though.  Flying the E145 and the E195 might both be two of the most profitable fleet types on their own, but when they are combined to cover the gamut of 50-100 seat range they would likely be eclipsed by a single fleet of CRJs.  And no, "most profitable" is not the best measure and I founded/own/operate a successful business (IRL outside of AWS lol).  Most profitable in itself is an ambiguous term.  Walmart has a 3% net profit margin and is very unprofitable when you look at percentages, but when you look at actual dollars they are one of the most profitable companies in the world.  Competing with strategy means you are competing for profit, but it is the ends and not the means.  Disruptive innovation is based on capturing the least profitable market segments and drifting upmarket, for example.

Offline Andriy

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2014, 08:54:25 PM »
In my opinion SSJ 100 is the best 70-100 seater A/C because:

Fedot,
- An148/158 has +/- same specs and 25% cheaper vs SSJ. How does SSJ comes better from your POV?

PS: Is it Russian or "Assembled in Russia"? ;D 70%+ of the aircraft is from foreign components. And how comes that Russian President Administration Air Unit is flying Ukrainian An-148 rather than Russian SSJ? :laugh:

Offline Andriy

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2014, 09:06:57 PM »
Most profitable is important at a macro level though.  Flying the E145 and the E195 might both be two of the most profitable fleet types on their own, but when they are combined to cover the gamut of 50-100 seat range they would likely be eclipsed by a single fleet of CRJs.  And no, "most profitable" is not the best measure and I founded/own/operate a successful business (IRL outside of AWS lol).  Most profitable in itself is an ambiguous term.  Walmart has a 3% net profit margin and is very unprofitable when you look at percentages, but when you look at actual dollars they are one of the most profitable companies in the world.  Competing with strategy means you are competing for profit, but it is the ends and not the means.  Disruptive innovation is based on capturing the least profitable market segments and drifting upmarket, for example.

We are getting in a different kind of discussion - but you are mixing up things. You don't compare margins in different industries - no point in comparing retail, banking, manufacturing, etc. But that within a certain industry it would be a margin (together growth dynamic) that mostly determine capitalization. This said - you only criticized "profitability", but did not offer an alternative definition of "best"...?
PS: just had a look at some other posts - have you ever accepted you might actually be wrong? ;D

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2014, 09:12:11 PM »
Question -

I am unsure as to why you start these polls and then prove that you already have your mind set and will not listen to any others response that does not agree with yours.

Anyway...have fun.

Offline Andriy

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2014, 09:18:17 PM »
I am not proving anything, just asking... some people find it strange, some don't - everyone is different:)

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2014, 09:20:53 PM »
It is Ok as I see the link now.

The best prop (one of your other questions) in your opinion is an Antonov
The best regional jet - it looks like you are alluding to yet another Antonov

I am sure that your opinion is not biased by the fact that you are from Ukraine?



Offline Andriy

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2014, 09:24:41 PM »
If seriously, its interesting to see that lots of folks still go with "default" choice - everyone kind of knows that you cant get wrong with A320 and E-jets - and its enough to look at global stats to see that. This is at the same time as there many other options - like MD90 or CRJs, but those are  often overlooked (IMHO), not to say about "exotics" like SSJ, An148, MRJs...

Offline Andriy

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2014, 09:31:55 PM »
It is Ok as I see the link now.
The best prop (one of your other questions) in your opinion is an Antonov
The best regional jet - it looks like you are alluding to yet another Antonov
I am sure that your opinion is not biased by the fact that you are from Ukraine?

Good guess Sherlock! ;D - but you missed this time
SSJ is just naturally best compared to An-148 - especially in the game given similar stats. IRL, they actually have been made for different purposes - SSJ is a more "civilized" option trying to target european markets (hence large share of european components) while An148 is designed a rugged frame to operate in developing world, provincial airports, etc - its easy to maintain and repair, can take off from s***ty runways, etc

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2014, 09:32:50 PM »
Then how do you define profitability?  The title is "Best Regional Jet" not most profitable.  And yes, I'm very open to being wrong (I even stated I was wrong on the prop thread you created when it came to fuel burn), but you keep moving the goal posts when you post arbitrary questions like this with no clarity.  I have a formal education in competition and business strategy, so my understanding of how a business works and why is at a different level than most people that play this game, many concepts of which are counter intuitive.

Take a look at it from a restaurant perspective (I don't own a restaurant BTW).  A $10 steak might have a 100% markup and be priced at $20 whereas a pasta dish will cost $5 with a 300% markup and be priced at $15.  Which is more profitable?  If you are a customer, you would probably say the pasta because it has a 300% markup whereas the restaurant owner will say they are the same--they both produce $10 in gross profit.  This is why menus are priced the way they are--it doesn't matter what you order because you are going to generate a $10 in gross profit.  It's the same in AWS.

What I think you are trying to as ask is which aircraft provides the greatest RONA (return on net assets), which again could be the E145 fleet group or the E195 fleet group assuming you are only flying one fleet type, but if you are flying both then the CRJ is likely going to be better because of the additional costs of having multiple fleets (especially the fourth).

Going back to your comment--comparing within a certain industry wouldn't be margin because of the exact example I gave with Walmart.  Walmart has the lowest margins (3%) but the highest profit (billions and billions) so would they be the least profitable or the most profitable in their industry?  The same goes with aircraft--is an aircraft with 50 seats producing 15% profit considered more profitable than a 100 seat aircraft producing 10% on double the revenue?  The former has a higher margin, but the actual dollar value is going to be lower.  Really the answer is much more complex than a simple blanket statement of which aircraft is best because there are simply too many factors at play in determining what is best (see your prop thread, for example).  It also doesn't take into consideration frequency, which would be is it more profitable to fly that 50 seater 2x at 15% profit margin or the 100 seater 1x at 10% profit.  You'd need a background in operations research to answer that one scientifically.

My definition of best would be best all around, which is why I stated the CRJ because of the flexibility of the fleet type.  Given unknown airport, route demand/density, etc. then you can likely make the CRJ work in virtually any circumstance.  Given defined circumstances, the CRJ isn't always going to be the "best".

Offline Andriy

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2014, 09:58:42 PM »
I think you actually gave an answer in the last post - its ROI.
Hard to imagine that someone is considering 50 seater @15% vs 100 seater @10%, etc - but rather thinks if I have xxx and invest them into different aicrafts (with different capacity, efficiency, # of routes, etc), which one will give me higher return (as of a combination of all its specs & features)? And important thing here is that investment is always limited. In theory one may say there is a choice between 100 @10% and 200@5% - but in practice there is only so much which is available for you and you want to invest them with best return. In other words if you have 5bln to invest into aircraft's that will give you 10%/500mln of profit, its very unlikely you will raise 15bln to invest into smth that will give you 5% return - even if this will be 50% higher profit in absolute.

PS: restaurants work differently:) usually fixed mark up on "main meals" (which does not generate too much profit) - there they do make money is drinks, teas&coffees and desserts

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2014, 10:18:09 PM »
Actually restaurants are a lot more similar than you think as their product is perishable (seats in a restaurant, seats on a plane) and have high overhead costs (restaurant building/staff, airplanes/staff).

The 50@15% and 100@10% scenario is very real.  Consider a route with 150 pax/demand and your competitor is flying a 100 seater.  That means if you add a flight, the expected value (EV) goes to 75 pax per flight.  If you add 2 flights, the EV goes to 50 pax/flight.  Thus you have the decision do you fly a 100 seater with 75 pax and earn 10% or do you fly a 50 seater 2x with 50 pax and earn 15%.

Nonetheless, basing decisions simply on ROI is shortsighted, often unsustainable, and not competing with strategy.  You can google Clayton Christensen and Michael Porter for countless examples/articles as to why if you're interested.

Offline Andriy

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2014, 10:32:10 PM »
Or you fly 50 seater, make your 15% and wait till your competitor bankrupts when he will overstretch himself with all those high rev, low margin routes. But its impossible to argue with you - "its hard to fill a cup which is already full"   :)

Offline LotusAirways

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2014, 03:55:47 PM »
Sukhoi because President Putin says so.

LA

Offline Mr Yoda

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2014, 08:31:47 PM »
Fedot,
- An148/158 has +/- same specs and 25% cheaper vs SSJ. How does SSJ comes better from your POV?

PS: Is it Russian or "Assembled in Russia"? ;D 70%+ of the aircraft is from foreign components. And how comes that Russian President Administration Air Unit is flying Ukrainian An-148 rather than Russian SSJ? :laugh:

Well

One it's louder than SSJ, two biggest type carries more passengers than Antonov 148 (any), three it requires more crew than SSJ and four it needs more runway than SSJ.

Yes Antonovs are made for rough operations where a normal jet would't even dare coming anywhere close but its AWS so who cares about rough opertions.

Yes it does get assembled in Russia and thats where the idea and the main design came from. And about components, then a lot of A/C nowadays that have components build in numerous amount of countries. Like the Dreamliner for example, the nose part of the plane is actually manufactured in the Ural region.

I think you got Rossiya airline mixed up with the government one as they operate the Antonovs  :)
I think you got Rossiya airline got mixed up with the government   

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2014, 08:48:53 PM »
My favorite regional jets are A320/Neo and 737NG/MAX.

Offline Andriy

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The person who likes this post:
Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2014, 08:56:39 AM »
Well

One it's louder than SSJ, two biggest type carries more passengers than Antonov 148 (any), three it requires more crew than SSJ and four it needs more runway than SSJ.

Yes Antonovs are made for rough operations where a normal jet would't even dare coming anywhere close but its AWS so who cares about rough opertions.

Yes it does get assembled in Russia and thats where the idea and the main design came from. And about components, then a lot of A/C nowadays that have components build in numerous amount of countries. Like the Dreamliner for example, the nose part of the plane is actually manufactured in the Ural region.

I think you got Rossiya airline mixed up with the government one as they operate the Antonovs  :)
I think you got Rossiya airline got mixed up with the government

hm... lets see... :)

1) An148 louder than SSJ. true - but irrelevant for the game, same as you noted - Antonov has advantage of operating in rough conditions but worth  nothing for the game
2) Needs more runway. true - but than SSJ is likely to really benefit from this only in fee places like London City
3) More pax - not really, Antonov has "158" which is a match for SSJ 100-95
4) More staff - true, 1 more flight attendant (I really wonder why they need 3 of them for a small plane...?)

So if we think in terms of in-game performance, its only 1 less staff that SSJ is really better. But this comes with a 95k/mo higher lease price. Thus  if 1 extra stuff would cost you more than 100k a month - than SSJ is better, otherwise...:)

PS: there are two "Rossija"'s in Russia - one is SPB based airline, another is a special govt airline (google Специальный лётный отряд Россия). Actually both run An148:) - first one has 6, another 3 of them - and none SSJs - amazing, eh?:)))

Offline Mr Yoda

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Re: Best regional jet vote
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2014, 12:11:37 PM »
I knew about the LED one and the Government one.

Now I see, well Antonovs 148 are also built in Voronezh as well as Kiev so it's arguably a Ukranian jet not including the ideas and the design.

My favorite regional jets are A320/Neo and 737NG/MAX.


Wow you hate regional jets...


 

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