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Author Topic: Slot quota system gone drinking  (Read 1253 times)

Online schro

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Slot quota system gone drinking
« on: July 31, 2014, 01:27:01 PM »
So, the slot quota system is acting like it has been at the pub for the past couple of days drinking everyone under the table. It is difficult to pinpoint exactly what is going on, but my observations don't jive with reality in GW3. My understanding is that the quota will trigger when a significant number of slots are released and the restriction will be based upon the slots that get dropped.

Examples:
LHR, just now: There have been no bankruptcies and no slots made available (that i've noticed) in the past 9 hours. At some point in the past couple hours, a 150 per 5 day quota was enacted.

FRA: When Sonata Airlines bankrupted, a 150 per 5 day quota was enacted, but subsequently dropped. I opened a base, took on 400 slots and looking at overall availability, I would not have considered FRA to be slot restricted at that point (as most hours were available for a minimum of a few flights). Frosty Air then bankrupted (out of EHAM, with a fairly low number of slots, but I'm not sure of the number) and a 35 per 5 day quota was enacted. It also kicked one off in CDG of 35 per 5 days.

It basically seems like the logic being used to apply the quotas is not handling multiple events very cleanly and is getting confused...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 04:56:04 AM »
Quote
I opened a base, took on 400 slots and looking at overall availability, I would not have considered FRA to be slot restricted at that point (as most hours were available for a minimum of a few flights).

As I learned the hard way at my GW2 Newark base, an airport being defined as slot-restricted has nothing to do with the available slots. The airports defined as such are "slot-restricted" from the first day of the game world to the last day. It's a hard rule, not dynamic.

As far as a bankruptcy in AMS triggering a slot quota in CDG, maybe that airline had a lot of CDG slots? Did they have bases outside AMS that were using a ton of CDG slots? I'm not sure how the 5-day slot quota rules work as I have not run into those (I avoid LHR, don't need the headaches) but maybe the rules apply both at the bases and outstations of the BK airline if they have a lot of flights to a particular outstation?

Online schro

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 03:31:32 PM »
As I learned the hard way at my GW2 Newark base, an airport being defined as slot-restricted has nothing to do with the available slots. The airports defined as such are "slot-restricted" from the first day of the game world to the last day. It's a hard rule, not dynamic.

As far as a bankruptcy in AMS triggering a slot quota in CDG, maybe that airline had a lot of CDG slots? Did they have bases outside AMS that were using a ton of CDG slots? I'm not sure how the 5-day slot quota rules work as I have not run into those (I avoid LHR, don't need the headaches) but maybe the rules apply both at the bases and outstations of the BK airline if they have a lot of flights to a particular outstation?

I'm pretty sure that it is expected that an out of base airline dropping a number of slots is the intended design and I'm OK with that. I'm pointing out the inconsistency that I was seeing in which airports received the quota and for the number of slots within the quota. In the LHR example, no slots were dropped by anyone yet the quota got enacted. In the FRA example, there were hundreds of prime time slots available when the Frosty bankruptcy happened (which added another 50-100 slots to availability) resulted in a quota that was far more restrictive in comparison to available slots than I would have expected. I mean, really? hundreds of slots available from 0500 to 2000, yet only 35 per 5 game days?

Online schro

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 01:18:18 AM »
GW3 - Lubeca bankruptcy out of VHHH. Probably had around 100 slots, no quota was triggered.

* schro goes back to the pub with the quota system.

Offline Sami

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 08:15:08 AM »
GW3 - Lubeca bankruptcy out of VHHH. Probably had around 100 slots, no quota was triggered.

Nothing wrong there since it isn't "slot restricted" airport (= plenty of slots available).


The airport must have less than 30% of slots available for the system to trigger. http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26356.msg296239.html#msg296239    It is NOT a hard coded list of airports that are in this system.

So per your original post, LHR quota is normal. Probably someone closed routes and slots were briefly available. FRA case - probably just on the borderline of the 70/30% limit, so enough to trigger the quota.

But I would guess that it works just fine .. Or at least nothing very abnormal based on these.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 08:19:33 AM by sami »

Online schro

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 01:32:47 AM »
GW3 - Lubeca bankruptcy out of VHHH. Probably had around 100 slots, no quota was triggered.

* schro goes back to the pub with the quota system.

What i meant is that Lubeca had 100 slots at LHR (and thousands at VHHH). Subsequently, the quota did not trigger.

Online schro

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2014, 04:59:56 AM »
So, here's another odd case -

EHAM in GW3. Only possible BK impacting it was in EDDP on Feb-26-2017. I do not recall seeing the quota in play at that point. Then, on Mar-3-2017, two airlines open a base there, presumably pushing the total slot availability to just under 30% causing the restriction to trigger at a rate of 35 slots per 5 game days (even though nearly 30% of the slots are available). As of Mar-16-2017 (13 days after base opening, 18 days after the BK that likely triggered the quota), the quota is still in place. In neighboring EDDF, it appeared to receive a 35 per 5 day quota at some point, and has since had it removed.

In this case, it makes it seem like the restriction is being constantly reevaluated instead of just at each BK/slot release and when a restriction is placed on, it is done for 15 days after the identification of such a scenario rather than 15 days after the triggering event. This should be confirmed if the restriction drops on Mar-18-2017 (or 19th, to account for sami-random rounding ;-) ).

Regardless, if the above is how it is functioning, it is rather unintuitive to the extent that it bugs me. For now, I'll rebeer and wait for the flood gates to open.

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2016, 02:11:56 PM »
I will beat this one into the ground. It is -far- too sensitive. Please, tell me who BK'd in GW2 that could have possibly had enough slots at LHR in the last 6 months to trigger a quota. The -only- airline that could have even flown to LHR had a 3rd base a CPH and a total of 47 aircraft. With the exception of the 0600 hour, there are at least 10 available slot sets in every hour and 30+ in most hours. Now, again, with time to play today I am stuck waiting for the absolutely ridiculous quota system to decide that it is ok for me to buy some of the 4,000 slots available at my HQ.....

Please pick one...stupid high slot totals OR a quota. Having both does nothing to help the game and simply ticks off players.....
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 02:31:15 PM by ZombieSlayer »
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Offline Sami

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 03:49:30 PM »
There are the following slot closure entries in the database for GW2:

Airport | AirlineID | Date | numOfSlots
EGLL    1008    1976-01-13    90
EGLL    103    1976-01-23    7
EGLL    1785    1976-01-08    35
EGLL    616    1976-01-07    21

So a total of 153 slot closures have happened, enough to start the quota.

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2016, 04:35:26 PM »
Which is why it NEEDS to be tweaked. That is less than 3% of the currently available slots at LHR and it effectively blocks any based airline from doing any real work on their airlines for 7 hours.
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Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2016, 05:27:45 PM »
Let me put this another way. When the quota was introduced LHR topped out at about 60 slots an hour. Today LHR has 192 slots and it's 1976. I have read somewhere that 30% of the slots have to be open to avoid the quota. So, by that math, the same number of slots LHR once topped out at have to be readily available for players to operate normally.

So, like I have said, I understand why the quota system is in place, it is just time for it to get with the times. We have 3x the slots in today's AWS, reduce the quota threshold accordingly. 10% of slots at LHR TODAY would still be 2,282 or more than enough for any airline to come in aND build a nice 150 plane base. 30% is almost 7,000 slots...
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Offline 11Air

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 08:41:44 PM »
LHR is a bit of a special case in that it has 'improved' so much over the game years.  ATC was simply radio position reporting in the early days, ATC in the link a determining landing order and trying to maintain height or position clearances.  Radar soon improved on that though it was some time before anything within ten to twenty miles of Heathrow had to have flight plans and I.D and Location Responders.  The third runway finally disappeared in the 80's?, a SW-NE runway for lighter aircraft in strong winds.  Since then the two parallel runways have been the sole provision, normally with one being generally landing, the other for take-off, as that helped with Taxi Clearances around the airport until T4 opened (Cargo only in those days).
While I lived between the flight paths for 27L/R there were regular occasions where planes alternately used L-R-L-R-L runways, maintaining the minimum 3 mile? separation on paths a mile apart by lagging by a mile or so.  That was, and is, maximum arrival (and departure) rate.
1. Significance is the total movements have a maximum, but the number of arrivals varies opposite to the number of departures depending on demand.  Peak demands were morning arrivals from the US(night flights) and East, and a team time peak (US chasing the evening flight and night flights to the East).
2. The total number of slots per hour varies over the years as methods and equipment improved.  Some this was financed by charges to the airlines (ie per slot) to pay for upgrades so increase in slot numbers should come with an increase in slot charges.
3. The capacity of aircraft has also lead to big changes, T1 went a while back, T3 has now gone too, T2 and T5 now do the bulk of the Pax handling at a very considerable cost, offset to some extent by revenue raised by 'Shopping Opportunities' (Love Them / Hate Them?) but the Pax Numbers are also limited at most airports, as well as slots.

So, Is City Demand going to have the cost factors built in after capacity increases at airports, or the expansions actually driven by passenger through flow rather than historic demand? 

And please, the above is written purely from my aged memory, by all means advise of any errors, or better data, I'll happily amend as appropriate.

As a foot note the fuel at Heathrow used to be Tank Stored where T4 is now, supplied mainly by underground pipework from Southampton's Fawley Oil Tanker Terminal and Refinery close to where the Flying Boats used to take-off for all points anywhere.  I'm not sure how T4 affected the old tank farm.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 08:45:57 PM by 11Air »

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Slot quota system gone drinking
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2016, 10:05:45 PM »
LHR is a special case, I only use it as an example because I am based there this gane. The same could be said for, say, LGW if slots were availableft. 76 right now where in the past it was in the mid-high 30's. Slot totals increase, slot quota threshold decreases accordingly. I am not trying to hoard slots, I just want to be able to play the game that I pay to play! Today I lost 3 hours that I could have scheduled 20-30 planes in due to an overly sensitive quota system and it is frustrating. Instead, I got 1 round of DC-10's flying (35 slots), waited 3 hours, then got 2 DC-9's flying (40 slots) and had to shut it down. Rough estimate there are 3,580 slots available at LHR right now and I could only buy 75....

As for the citybased demand part of your post, I am.very interested in hearing about that. I would love to see airline financed expansions.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 01:10:20 PM by ZombieSlayer »
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