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Author Topic: Constant PayRise Requests  (Read 1866 times)

Offline Jackson

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Constant PayRise Requests
« on: April 16, 2014, 08:40:32 PM »
In what establishment do we know where customer service staff are paid $1720 pm or more?

If my company is making a steady profit that does noy fluctuate, will wages really continue to rise? This is very very very unrealistic. Sami can you amend this please? I do understand how unions work but this is unreasonable. What happens if my profits decrease? Will my staff understand? No.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2014, 09:02:39 PM »
Staff costs are one of the major ways in AWS to take money from the too high profit marings out of the game.

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2014, 10:32:37 AM »
Ok. Still not realistic

Offline Sami

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2014, 12:59:22 PM »
If my company is making a steady profit that does noy fluctuate, will wages really continue to rise? This is very very very unrealistic.

No it isn't, since the employees couldn't care less what the company's profit is. They care what they earn and what is the general cost level (inflation).

If the bread costed last year $1 and next year $1.5 they naturally wish to be paid $0.5 more. The company can use different reasonings to bargain, like their poor profitability, but in the end the people working there do not care of that (since it's not their fault etc).

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2014, 01:52:59 PM »
In what establishment do we know where customer service staff are paid $1720 pm or more?

If my company is making a steady profit that does noy fluctuate, will wages really continue to rise? This is very very very unrealistic. Sami can you amend this please? I do understand how unions work but this is unreasonable. What happens if my profits decrease? Will my staff understand? No.

You realize this is only 10 bucks an hour, right?  Profitability does not matter because employees are stakeholders and not shareholders.  They are simply exchanging their time for money and the opportunity cost is working at another company doing customer service at 10 bucks an hour, which is very realistic.

Online [ATA] Sunbao

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2014, 03:24:29 PM »
1720$ is probally way to low in many countries over the world also, so not unrealistic at all.

Here in Denmark we have a 37 hours work week with around 10 dollars pr hour, the wage is probally only around 1/3 of the real wage for such a job here in Denmark.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 09:13:10 PM »
And how many internationally successful airlines are there out of Denmark? ;)

It's no secret the most successful airlines in the current real world are from countries that a) sponsor the airlines direct or indirect massively b) care neither about salary nor work safety

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 10:26:14 PM »
You realize this is only 10 bucks an hour, right?  Profitability does not matter because employees are stakeholders and not shareholders.  They are simply exchanging their time for money and the opportunity cost is working at another company doing customer service at 10 bucks an hour, which is very realistic.

You do realise there are people in this game world paying Customer Service staff well over $3000 pm right? That is fine to you?

I don't think I made myself as clear as I could have. Unions do NOT CONSISTANLY ASK FOR PAYRISES. Whether a company is steady or has an increasing profit margin, wages reflect tge economy. So shouldn't tge wages in this game world reflect tge economy of that time? Just like RW events and fuel prices. For one to say "oh its just to keep airlines from making too much profit"....wtf? Lool really? What airlines exactly people? The big airport grabbers or the ordinary average sized airline that is affected more than the mega airlines?  :-\

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 10:34:43 PM »
No it isn't, since the employees couldn't care less what the company's profit is. They care what they earn and what is the general cost level (inflation).

If the bread costed last year $1 and next year $1.5 they naturally wish to be paid $0.5 more. The company can use different reasonings to bargain, like their poor profitability, but in the end the people working there do not care of that (since it's not their fault etc).

I know this already Sami and you completely avoided the point. My POINT was to find out exactly why on heavens earth in this game will staff CONTINUE to ask for more and more money whether you make more profits or not?

There are airlines who are paying over $3000 pm for CUSTOMER SERVICES STAFF. Why? If you refuse their moral goes down. Now I think I asked a legit question so shouldn't I also receive a legit answer instead of one of an example to a 26 year old who own his own small company about the costs of bread? :laugh: No but seriously. .. :-\

Offline Sami

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 10:35:18 PM »
So shouldn't tge wages in this game world reflect tge economy of that time?

This is exactly what they do and have always done. And the global economy, to which they base their salary requests, is in no relation to profit/loss of single, or a group of, airlines.

(This has been modelled basically from day 1 like this.)

(= EXACTLY like it works in real life. Just a single example; my employer made losses last year, but still we are getting some payraises this year too .. They do have a savings campaign going on, but it's an efficiency campaign and not to cut salaries. And same with everybody else - as it seems that you perhaps quite do not understand how corporations work; the people working there are in no way liable, nor interested, on the company's result (in general level). The only thing they care is how much they earn and what they can get with the earnings. If everything else gets more expensive, hence the bread example of inflation (which I see you really didn't figure out yet?), they need to be paid more. And they want that regardless if the company makes +$100mil or -$100mil per year..  So welcome to the real world  ;D )

(And also - to add, you cannot compare salaries of two airlines in different countries. $1700 or $3000 to customer service staff is not comparable unless you specify which airlines they are and where. $1700 in Papua New Guinea for example is relatively MUCH MUCH more than $3000 in Norway. The country differences in income levels are also modelled. An airline based in a "poor" country can pay less than one third in staff costs in relation to some airline in a highly developed country - but the demands are also much smaller with less premium passengers, and so forth (again, quite relative to real world).)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:48:01 PM by sami »

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2014, 10:38:35 PM »
1720$ is probally way to low in many countries over the world also, so not unrealistic at all.

Here in Denmark we have a 37 hours work week with around 10 dollars pr hour, the wage is probally only around 1/3 of the real wage for such a job here in Denmark.

10 bucks an hour? Wow. In London and across the UK any one working in customer service making that kind of money is considered very lucky. Gucci and other high end retail brands do not even pay that much. Thank goodness you live where you live.

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2014, 10:47:18 PM »
CEO:                        81.000  :laugh:
Hi level management:  21.800
Mid level management 17.500
Econ n Finan:              6.380
Communication:           6.120
HR:                            4.720
Quality:                      4.920
Safety:                      5.230
Customer service:        3.480
Flight operation:          6.380
Tech:                        5.420
Ground:                      2.760
Route:                        4.710
Large pilot:                11.100
VLarge pilot:              15.500
Crew:                        4.460


This is what a fellow alliance member of mine is FORCED YO PAY HIS STAFF. Otherwise their moral goes down thr toilet.

I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT 1700 USD. I am complaining about CONSTANT RISING WAGES. Are we on the same pagr here? Yes? No?

Now who exactly wants to tell me why I am paying my customer service staff 1700 usd and my friends is paying 3400 USD?

But I guess this is accurate and reflects the global economy of this time right? Wrong. This is individual wage demands according to the amount of money an airline makes. He had a larger more profitable airline so I assume that is tge reason. Still. Isnt that unfair? If this was the case irl everyone would want to work for AAL DAL BAW etc etc. Who would want to work for 1300 usd when you can get 4000 5000 or even 6000 for doing a customer service role. Get my drift now guys?

Offline Sami

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2014, 10:49:11 PM »
Now who exactly wants to tell me why I am paying my customer service staff 1700 usd and my friends is paying 3400 USD?

Please read what I wrote in my previous message ....

(facepalm)


Also by the way. A major carrier's staff costs are about 20-30% of their total operating costs (more in earlier eras, can be up to 40% in early ages).  (source: IATA)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:53:44 PM by sami »

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2014, 10:59:02 PM »
This is exactly what they do and have always done. And the global economy, to which they base their salary requests, is in no relation to profit/loss of single, or a group of, airlines.

(This has been modelled basically from day 1 like this.)

(= EXACTLY like it works in real life. Just a single example; my employer made losses last year, but still we are getting some payraises this year too .. They do have a savings campaign going on, but it's an efficiency campaign and not to cut salaries. And same with everybody else - as it seems that you perhaps quite do not understand how corporations work; the people working there are in no way liable, nor interested, on the company's result (in general level). The only thing they care is how much they earn and what they can get with the earnings. If everything else gets more expensive, hence the bread example of inflation (which I see you really didn't figure out yet?), they need to be paid more. And they want that regardless if the company makes +$100mil or -$100mil per year..  So welcome to the real world  ;D )

(And also - to add, you cannot compare salaries of two airlines in different countries. $1700 or $3000 to customer service staff is not comparable unless you specify which airlines they are and where. $1700 in Papua New Guinea for example is relatively MUCH MUCH more than $3000 in Norway. The country differences in income levels are also modelled. An airline based in a "poor" country can pay less than one third in staff costs in relation to some airline in a highly developed country - but the demands are also much smaller with less premium passengers, and so forth (again, quite relative to real world).)

Nope. Sami it is 2004 in my game world amd I am already paying my customer service staff 1740 USD.

What is my outlook im 2014 ten years later? I have an ex gf who works for Lufthansa in Heathrow. She is a manager and gets around the 9 ph mark. According to what you said, in 2004 she would be getting around 6 ph for the same role. In 2024 maybe 15 ph?

That is not how things work. Yes the cost of living goes up. Wages are the last thing yo follow at this moment in time. Peoplr in the average work force do not through a fit unless otger companies around them in multiple sectors are paying considerably more.

Lastly CURSE said it is to regulate airlines from getting away with toi high profits. You say this is indeed realistic. My 15 customer service staff I employ irl would disagree and would live your concept sami. But I will drop it and report back in 2014 when I begin to pay double the amount any rl company would pay its customer service staff irl. Sorry if I appear rude btw. I am p***ed off about something personal so I mean no offence to anyone.

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2014, 11:05:31 PM »
Please read what I wrote in my previous message ....

(facepalm)


Also by the way. A major carrier's staff costs are about 20-30% of their total operating costs (more in earlier eras, can be up to 40% in early ages).  (source: IATA)

Is that in response to the figures of the alliance member I presented? In simple terms, no matter how large a company (airlines too) get, that does not force the company to increase WAGES.

(Face palms)

Im done. I will deal with it. You are the one that says what goes. But. No no no. You have this all wrong and I believes you should amend this.

Now unless you can provide evidence of a super large company that pays their regular customer service staff more than 2000/$3400+ I really cannot understand what you are trying to say Sami. I would like to see rl examples.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:08:10 PM by Jackson »

Offline Sami

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2014, 11:06:28 PM »
Oh dear.

What is my outlook im 2014 ten years later? I have an ex gf who works for Lufthansa in Heathrow. She is a manager and gets around the 9 ph mark. According to what you said, in 2004 she would be getting around 6 ph for the same role. In 2024 maybe 15 ph?

That is not how things work.

This is exactly how it works. It is called inflation (which I am sure we are all familiar with), and on general level the wages do follow the inflation (with minor delay). (however your figures are tad high there (generally some 1-3%/yr, in developed countries), but you got the idea - the amount of money needed for something always increases. Remember what an ice cream used to cost 10 years ago? Not the same any more today, ain't it? .. Inflation.)

If salaries would not follow the general cost level (ie. inflation), your ex would be paid still 10pence/hour, since that was still a good salary in 1950s.

(but you have to keep in mind that the people paying for the tickets will also pay more, if looking at the figure alone. The ticket that was $100 10 years ago is today $110..)

Quote
Lastly CURSE said it is to regulate airlines from getting away with toi high profits.

Well, he can have his opinions but they are not facts necessarily. Check how high % share of your total costs are the staff's salaries. I bet it's between about 20-30% and then it's EXACTLY in the ballpark what real airlines pay too! Do not focus on what Mary the Service Agent gets paid by the hour (even though they are rather accurate too) - but focus on the total cost of staff.


(anyway, someone else can now try to explain.. I don't know how to make it any clearer anymore)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:13:33 PM by sami »

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2014, 11:20:03 PM »
 :laugh: at "Oh Dear".

I do understand inflation and I am in a rush hence my grammer and spelling mistakes.

I know things increase. The cost of living increase. I know. And by no means were the figures I used to speculate what it would be like in 2024 calculated. It was just to use as an example.

What I am saying is this is not in unison with every airline in the GW. Not saying they should all be the same but definitely similar. For instance. My aitline irl would afford to pay CS Staff 8 ph. A new airline may be 1 less. 10 years ago even less. 10 years forward if the price of living in reases then so would the wage obviously lol. But no way would my airline be paying 8 ph while a Heathrow giant pays nearly double that as the biggest aitline IRL pay more ot.less the exact same wage as the smallest. And you say around 30% of the operating costs. That is more because of HOW MUCH STAFF IS EMPLOYED rather than HOW MUCH THEY ARE PAID.


If you can do me this one favour Sami. Just answer this one question please.

Why am I paying CS Staff $1740 and another airline is paying the exact same staff type $3400? Each person. Why?

Offline Sami

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2014, 11:23:31 PM »
Why am I paying CS Staff $1740 and another airline is paying the exact same staff type $3400? Each person. Why?

I did already answer to this. http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,53235.msg305191.html#msg305191


About inflation, salaries, etc:
http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/adjust-salary-scales-inflation-7261.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price/wage_spiral
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:25:55 PM by sami »

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2014, 11:31:09 PM »

(And also - to add, you cannot compare salaries of two airlines in different countries. $1700 or $3000 to customer service staff is not comparable unless you specify which airlines they are and where. $1700 in Papua New Guinea for example is relatively MUCH MUCH more than $3000 in Norway. The country differences in income levels are also modelled. An airline based in a "poor" country can pay less than one third in staff costs in relation to some airline in a highly developed country - but the demands are also much smaller with less premium passengers, and so forth (again, quite relative to real world).)

Ok. I understand that different countries have better economy than others and can therefor pay more or restricted to pay less. But. I live in London. Very expensive place to live. Yet, customer service staff are paid practically the same as customer service staff in Trinidad.

7 ph for average retail store im UK
$65 Trinidadian dollars ph in average retail store in Trinidad

1=$10.

I am based in an oil rich nation. Kuwait

My friend pays 3400 and I pay 1740. That is what confuses me.

Offline Jackson

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Re: Constant PayRise Requests
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2014, 11:32:59 PM »
I did already answer to this. http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,53235.msg305191.html#msg305191


About inflation, salaries, etc:
http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/adjust-salary-scales-inflation-7261.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price/wage_spiral

Yes. Just saw it and responded to it. We were out of sync amd I recieved the replies late and vice versa.

 

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