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Author Topic: [-] Aircraft sales cap  (Read 2246 times)

Offline [ATA] frimp

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[-] Aircraft sales cap
« on: December 20, 2013, 05:11:00 PM »
Hi,

I'm going to throw an idea out here which is probably going to get a lot of push back but which I think would add more realism to the game..

Currently in DOTM the production slots are pretty full:
- 4755  A320 family ac orders
- 2398  A330 family ac orders
- 2030  B737 classics orders
- 1233  B767 ordrs

In MT, it's a similar scenario:
- 2018  A320 family ac orders
- 992    A330 family orders
- 2145  B737ng orders
- 1957  B787 orders

this is a scenario that gets repeated in EVERY single gameworld..

I think the root cause for this, is the way we are allowed to sell/lease out planes. Many large airlines load the production slots with many orders with a view to sell them on to other players (mainly alliance members) and I admit that I am one of the people who does this... The way this game is currently working, forces us into these sort of tactics to give alliances a competitive edge..

However, in real life, we all know that British Airways aren't going to order a bunch of Boeings/Airbusses and sell them on brand new to American Airlines or any of their other alliance buddies..

Since this is a sim to run an airline and not a leasing company I'd like to see some changes.. The way I see this working is to introduce a cap on the total number of aircrafts we are allowed to sell/lease out per year... I would suggest something in the region of 10-12 aircrafts per year, which gets reset on January 1st. In addition, it could be introduced that only aircrafts above a certain age (say 5-6yrs, close to D check), can be sold to other players.

The only age exception should be for airlines that are in financial difficulties. I don't think there should be an exception on the cap of airplanes you can sell if you are in financial difficulty. If you are still in trouble after selling 10-12 ac, you deserve to BK in my opinion...


I feel this would free up an immense proportion of the production slots across the board and be a lot more realistic and focus people to actually run an efficient airline rather than a broker firm as part of their airlines.

it would be unrealistic to introduce this in one of the current games but this is definately something I'd like to see introduced in the future.
Once you launch terminal feature, the cap could then be removed or increased..

I'm intrigued with the comments that shall follow from this..

all the best

Fred
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 09:41:20 AM by sami »

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 05:14:53 PM »
Minimum lease is 5 years.  IMO the minimum holding time should be 5 years for an owned aircraft with the exception being if you have a large fleet of them that your actually flying.  So if you buy new from the factory, you can't sell for 5 years.  If you have 10 aircraft that are scheduled of that type, you can put 1 aircraft of that type younger than 5 years on the market.  IMO there is nothing wrong with airlines buying aircraft and selling them immediately IF THEY ARE FLYING THEM, which means they would be selling the aircraft at their own detriment.  If I have a fleet of 10 aircraft and want to sell one, I'm going to be stuck with leasing other aircraft or owning older aircraft--either way it wouldn't make any sense unless I'm in financial troubles and need to sell, which the exception to the rule would allow.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 06:41:36 PM »
I think a much simpler solution would be to remove the production line caps, let the line expand to 2x, 3x its capacity, and then there would be no premium to own those production slots, people will stop bidding them up.

It is exactly the same as the airport slots.  If slots are capped at unrealistically low level (compared to demand) they will be bid up, hoarded.  If aircraft production slots are capped, they will be hoarded.

Just a slight increase in slots (in the last MT9 adjustments) relieved bottlenecks almost completely, except less than a handful of airports.  The same would happen with aircraft production slots.

It is always the same: system has some artificial cap, hoarding starts, and, without a fail, players start thinking of endless regulations, bans, limits, penalties, failing to see the obvious.

If the production line of say 787 expanded to 2x its capacity, there would be place for all who want a 787 to order one.  Profit from flipping the aircraft would disappear, and so would the incentive to place more orders than the player needs.

PS: the game worlds have maybe 2x demand vs real world.  Production lines are at roughly RL level.  The game world starts with grossly insufficient amount of aircraft on UM to serve the demand by another factor of 2x.  So the production lines are glued to the cap from start to finish.  The wonderful dynamic production line adjustment is there for nothing, since the cap nullifies it.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 06:45:14 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 07:02:10 PM »
I think a much simpler solution would be to remove the production line caps, let the line expand to 2x, 3x its capacity, and then there would be no premium to own those production slots, people will stop bidding them up.

I like this, but then it would kill the used market.  Why buy a 737 or any other model second hand when you can get it from the factory new in a matter of months?    Maybe the solution is to simply stretch out orders when an aircraft is launched and then move them up.  So if you put in an order for 50 aircraft, you get 2 the first year, 3 the second, 4 the third, etc. which would leave big gaps for everyone else to place their orders.  Once production ramps up, those orders pushed out 10 years start getting moved up.

IMO there should be a similar "terminal" system where every player as an exclusive pool of production slots, but that is so unrealistic I don't think it would fly.  There is nothing wrong with hoarding except for when it is at the detriment of other players, which is what we have with the open slot system.

Another solution might just be "options".  If you place an order for an aircraft before it is certified, then you are simply buying options.  Your actual production slots will be assigned once it is certified.  This means the little guy playing 15min/day has the same opportunity as the mega airlines that are online 24/7 to get production slots.  It also keeps the lines from getting jammed up for current variants/models.

BD

  • Former member
Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 08:33:09 PM »
I think the root cause for this, is the way we are allowed to sell/lease out planes. Many large airlines load the production slots with many orders with a view to sell them on to other players (mainly alliance members) and I admit that I am one of the people who does this... The way this game is currently working, forces us into these sort of tactics to give alliances a competitive edge..
Root cause is a game imbalance, largely related to the ability to slot lock some large airports...don't see much competition for Concordes in JA8 where a competitive edge is needed.  ;D

Will the coming city based demand address this in the near future, or does something need to be done about this problem on production lines now?

Is there any downside to expanding production line capacity? 

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 11:00:06 PM »
I like this, but then it would kill the used market.  Why buy a 737 or any other model second hand when you can get it from the factory new in a matter of months?    Maybe the solution is to simply stretch out orders when an aircraft is launched and then move them up.  So if you put in an order for 50 aircraft, you get 2 the first year, 3 the second, 4 the third, etc. which would leave big gaps for everyone else to place their orders.  Once production ramps up, those orders pushed out 10 years start getting moved up.

The production line would just be wider, but the same limits on the rate of deliveries would apply.  So if you need 100 of those 737, it will still take a while to get them delivered.  And even if the production line expands, there is a limit to how far forward the orders can advance.

Wider production line will allow more airlines to place orders.  Even if you are a late starter, you may still be able to place orders in the more popular lines, instead of being shut out for a decade.

And as far as those who have the profits coming in, they will not need to sink all their money into production lines out of fear that they will lose out years of deliveries if they slow down their order placements.  That's what a lot of airlines do.  They place orders out of fear that they will lose deliveries.

And of course, if there is a cap, and everyone is starved for aircraft, it opens up profit potential to place orders for aircraft to be flipped for huge profit.  Removal of the cap would reduce the demand for this overpriced aircraft, which would lead to fewer orders being placed solely for profit from flipping....

Offline [ATA] frimp

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2013, 12:11:18 AM »
all great ideas, but i still think that with alliances, strong players buy many aircrafts for others when they have no need to fly those aircrafts.
it loads up the slots but also pushes up the value of the aircrafts.

I like the idea of lemonbutt that they can sell, if they operate the type themselves. (but they could schedule 10 ac for the sake of selling them) and then stop it..

I think bigger production gaps would fill up the airport slots at a quicker rate and then we are back at the same problem of slots at airports..

a change of behaviour is required on how we run our airlines.. limiting the ability to transfer planes amongst members would be one step in that direction

Offline dmoose42

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2013, 01:14:43 AM »
If Sami makes the accounting changes such that you can no longer expense new plane purchases (I.e., you still have to pay tax on that money), people will be less likely to buy surplus planes to lease out.  Additionally, with the addition on the parking fee penalty when more than 10 planes are idle, the costs of maintaining leasing operations will increase.

Offline Mr.HP

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2013, 01:31:43 AM »

I like the idea of lemonbutt that they can sell, if they operate the type themselves. (but they could schedule 10 ac for the sake of selling them) and then stop it..


I like his, too.

If the schedule of those 10 A/C got removed, the A/C listed got removed, too

Also, do you want to schedule 10 A/C every time just for the sake of selling one? Too much hassle for that little sale. And not to mention commonality cost goes up (even for a short time, but still can cost millions) when you're doing that

BD

  • Former member
Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2013, 03:54:23 AM »
If Sami makes the accounting changes such that you can no longer expense new plane purchases (I.e., you still have to pay tax on that money), people will be less likely to buy surplus planes to lease out.  Additionally, with the addition on the parking fee penalty when more than 10 planes are idle, the costs of maintaining leasing operations will increase.
Makes sense, if the income statement is the source for calculating taxable income and the purchases are treated as a depreciable asset (i.e. thus only depreciation hits as an expense).

I know I've been incented to buy aircraft near the end of the year to offset that year's taxes and have them rebated on Jan 15, though those aircraft fit my long term growth strategy.

Parking fees make sense, for a variety of reasons, but I wonder if we are pushing too far on solving a symptom of a separate, bigger problem.  Will this problem exist or be as/so acute after city based demand is implemented (in addition to the pending accounting changes)?  If not, how far out is that solution - if it is long, maybe this will help in the interim.  If the problem will still exist, are there other behavior incentives (that create this situation) that we can mitigate before creating a new disincentive or limit?

brique

  • Former member
Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2013, 04:51:34 AM »
Its one of my concerns, much as BD says, how much of our existing issues will be solved/exacerbated by forthcoming planned changes ; I'm curious as to the way current practices, driven by things like tax matters, are driving other problems with areas like slots, the used market and production log-jams : to  my mind, they are somewhat inter-linked and have created a kind of internal momentum : to avoid taxes, we perhaps overload the production lines with excess orders, then we overload the UM with now-unwanted surplus older aircraft (or over-priced brand new hulls we cant use) that we have little interest in spending mx money on as they get replaced by the new, tax-friendly, hulls. Also, with more planes incoming, we then pressurise the slot issue, trying to schedule as many as possible, and, also, due to commonality, have whole deserts devoted to parking them up until we re-fleet once they all finally arrive ,late, as production lines are log-jammed dodging taxes: it does seem to have created an eco-system which reinforces the problem areas and each fix, and its knock-on effects, just pushes the problem elsewhere.

Unlimited production will solve one issue, but then may well exacerbate others : often in ways we don't always anticipate. It will do nothing to resolve the problem about keeping less popular types in production long enough to create a viable alternative game strategy to the Boeing/Airbus/Douglas hegemony : in fact, it may well drive the game to the point where only those types will be available for the end game, not only wiping out alternative strategies but driving us to routing into the airports that can support those types, in size and demand, and bingo, back to the slots issue again.

yes, we want AWS to be as close to real life as possible, but its not possible to replicate all the checks, balances and anomalies that govern real life in a playable game: I think the absolute priority must be to produce a playable game that is enjoyable to play and allows for differing styles, strategies and commitment ; introducing a hundred irritating blocks and barriers which will act to force a particular playing style to the practical exclusion of any other will not produce a game you can find anything new in after the first few runs: just having to stick to the same routine every-time is not a recipe for longevity.

Offline Infinity

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 06:58:45 AM »
Minimum lease is 5 years.  IMO the minimum holding time should be 5 years for an owned aircraft with the exception being if you have a large fleet of them that your actually flying.  So if you buy new from the factory, you can't sell for 5 years.  If you have 10 aircraft that are scheduled of that type, you can put 1 aircraft of that type younger than 5 years on the market.  IMO there is nothing wrong with airlines buying aircraft and selling them immediately IF THEY ARE FLYING THEM, which means they would be selling the aircraft at their own detriment.  If I have a fleet of 10 aircraft and want to sell one, I'm going to be stuck with leasing other aircraft or owning older aircraft--either way it wouldn't make any sense unless I'm in financial troubles and need to sell, which the exception to the rule would allow.

That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. What is it with your hatred towards team players? I kind of don't get it that some mavericks like you are doing literally everything to ruin the game for team players. It's so sad.
This game is about competition - competition is always to someone elses detriment. What peculiar world do you (want to) live in, some weird Barbie Dream House where all live together in peace and nothing 'bad' ever happens? How disgusting.
I have said time and again that buying planes to lease them out is to absolutely _NOBODYS_ detriment, especially not smaller players! What does it take for you to finally get that? You got your way with forced maintenance, which I kind of agree on, and that's as far as it should go. How do you always come up with another idea to sabotage more dedicated players games? What's next if this 'idea' is approved, a general cap at 100 planes per player?

Offline Sami

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 11:29:08 AM »
Not really fond of a forced cap on what you can sell and what not...

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 05:31:04 PM »
I have said time and again that buying planes to lease them out is to absolutely _NOBODYS_ detriment, especially not smaller players!

Of course it's to the detriment of smaller players.

There is a cap on new plane delivery rate, in an attempt to ensure that all those who want to get a particular plane can actually do so.

Large airlines circumvent that cap by having others acquire planes for them. Other large airlines try to be airplane retailers, buying new wholesale planes and then selling at a markup, something that no RL airline does. Both those things mean that some production lines get very full, very fast, and smaller players have no way to get those planes other than an extremely long wait or by paying a big retail markup from one of the player-brokers. Which is clearly to those smaller player's detriment.

The cap on new plane deliveries cleary isn't doing the job it is supposed to. On some unpopular lines, players can't get planes at a practical rate. On very popular lines, smaller players are quickly locked out by bigger players circumventing the restrictions.

You could just have unlimited production, as Jumboshrimp suggests. You'd remove the incentive for players to go into the airplane retail business themselves, you'd no longer leave small players locked out. But you'd still have the problem of players circumventing the delivery cap, that instead of getting 2 planes/month delivered from one line, they could get 8 planes/month delivered by also taking the quota of 3 friends via the UM.

You'd also remove the need for players to make tougher choices about which plane type to fly, to weigh up availability vs operating costs, etc. No reason to order new MDs when everyone can get new 737/a320.

I don't think having airlines also trying to operate as a new plane retailer is a good thing. I don't think airlines being able to use their friends to circumvent restrictions and reduce supply for everyone else is a good thing. I find it weird that people who like to get very hung up on what happens in RL in other areas don't see how different to RL this area is. And I'll still do both of them myself, because they're both very helpful things the way the game is currently set up.

From a gameplay perspective, I think it'd be much better if that nominal cap on delivery rate for new planes actually applied to all airlines, if they couldn't work around it the way they currently can. It would mean that for rapid growth, to end up with any sort of huge airline, you'd need to run more than 3 fleets. So it'd also mean drastically redoing the fleet commonality system, to remove the absurd penalties for running more than 3 fleets we currently have.

Plane launches, and assigning delivery slots could be done much better, much more fairly, easily allowing everybody who can afford it to get new planes at a reasonable delivery rate and waiting period, thus removing the incentive for player-retailers/brokers. Unpopular lines could actually be acquired more quickly if you could afford it. I'd stop players having the ability to circumvent delivery rate restrictions, by making changes to the UM, also making that fairer and less of a lottery. Would also reduce the opportunities for cheating by transferring cash. Would no longer be possible to get 100+ planes of the same popular fleet in a year, so would also mean changes to commonality. End result I think would be a fairer, more competitive, more challenging game than what we've got currently.

I'd much rather have building a huge airline be a challenge, instead of being very easy as it currently is. That airline success came from building your airline well, making good choices, rather than so much of it being from how well you can circumvent ingame restrictions by using your friends to get extra departure slots, extra production slots, extra cash. That players had choices to make, instead of always being pushed towards doing the exact same thing to get a large airline.

ucfknightryan

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 07:40:53 PM »
Quote
I don't think airlines being able to use their friends to circumvent restrictions and reduce supply for everyone else is a good thing.

I don't think anyone would go to the trouble of doing this if rapid replacement of a type wasn't almost always absolutely necessary due to commonality penalties and parking penalties.

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2013, 09:26:48 PM »
I think they probably still would, though maybe not to the same extent. Faster expansion speed, faster transition speed would still be quite helpful even if commonality wasn't an issue. Especially when moving to a significantly better plane. Whether that be from DC-30 to a330/340 and all the extra destinations that open up with that extra range, or from a slot-grabbing start with curtis commando/CV-240s that you want to then dump for NAMC or F40s, or whatever else. Fixing commonality would mean less incentive, but not no incentive.

It would stop being almost required for fleet transitions though.

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2013, 09:32:36 PM »
I think they probably still would, though maybe not to the same extent. Faster expansion speed, faster transition speed would still be quite helpful even if commonality wasn't an issue. Especially when moving to a significantly better plane. Whether that be from DC-30 to a330/340 and all the extra destinations that open up with that extra range, or from a slot-grabbing start with curtis commando/CV-240s that you want to then dump for NAMC or F40s, or whatever else. Fixing commonality would mean less incentive, but not no incentive.

It would stop being almost required for fleet transitions though.

yes but coupled with the storage fees it becomes more risky for the ordering airline.  if the airline they're acting as broker for can't take the aircraft immediately they get stuck paying fees, and potentially checks as well.  I should have said most instead of anyone, as I don't think it would be entirely eliminated, just significantly cut down.

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2013, 12:03:09 AM »
I also would like to point out with regards to sales restrictions, not every sale of an order on arrival is due to ordering for someone else.  Sometimes plans have to change and it makes sense to sell the planes you're not going to use rather than cancelling the order, esp since it might be too late to cancel the whole thing.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2013, 03:25:35 AM »
Minimum lease is 5 years.  IMO the minimum holding time should be 5 years for an owned aircraft with the exception being if you have a large fleet of them that your actually flying.  So if you buy new from the factory, you can't sell for 5 years.  If you have 10 aircraft that are scheduled of that type, you can put 1 aircraft of that type younger than 5 years on the market.  IMO there is nothing wrong with airlines buying aircraft and selling them immediately IF THEY ARE FLYING THEM, which means they would be selling the aircraft at their own detriment.  If I have a fleet of 10 aircraft and want to sell one, I'm going to be stuck with leasing other aircraft or owning older aircraft--either way it wouldn't make any sense unless I'm in financial troubles and need to sell, which the exception to the rule would allow.

What up with this obsession creating new bans and limitations?  I never understood it.  Why not spend time thinking of things that players CAN to rather than thinking up things that a player CANNOT do.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aircraft sales cap
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2013, 03:30:12 AM »
I like the idea of lemonbutt that they can sell, if they operate the type themselves. (but they could schedule 10 ac for the sake of selling them) and then stop it..

I like his, too.

I find this extremely disturbing.  Not only the countries we live in are slowly being turned into police states by the do gooders.  Now these na´ve do gooders want to turn AWS into a police state, full of regulations, limitations, prohibitions, mandates...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 03:47:07 AM by JumboShrimp »

 

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