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Author Topic: [ok] AI-Broker auto retraction  (Read 657 times)

Offline Infinity

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[ok] AI-Broker auto retraction
« on: December 13, 2013, 08:30:27 PM »
Right now, when a players finances detoriate and he does not declare bankruptcy, the planes continue flying but the maintenance is not made anymore. While the company gets penalties for that, they don't hit him anymore if he is circling the drain anyway.
Along with the players finances, his planes condition will also detoriate. So much that eventually, when the bank closes him, the AI brokers will scrap a boatload of planes, no matter how attractive they are to the market.

Take for example CS Global Airways in MT9:
http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Info/Airline/View/218/133/#AirlineInfo

He has been beyond repair for several months now but does not close his shop. Already many of his planes will have catastrophic condition. The longer he draws this out, the more planes will be trash before the bank will eventually close him down.
Among them are also several planes very attractive to other players and a noticeable share of those will be scrapped when he collapses.

So, long story short, I propose that brokers auto retract their aircraft if they drop under, say 30-40% condition, to prevent scrapping (I have no idea what level of condition is required for them to be auto-scrapped, so the number is pretty random). This way the planes could be saved and wouldn't be lost to the other players.
I saw this happening multiple times last MT and it's about to happen with multiple airlines again now.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 11:15:53 AM by sami »

Offline jamier

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 08:46:08 PM »
Thanks for writing this up for me saft. Nightmare on this phone!

However I +1 this!

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 08:56:19 PM »
It could apply to the aircraft leased by players.  It could be called Lease agreement, and player could specify at which level the aircraft would be taken from Lessee.  For Broker, this level could be set to 50%, player could set this to higher, player selectable level, say 70%.

Lease termination penalty should still be assessed, so that this is not abused by, for example, continuing to fly the aircraft and removing the A check on an aircraft with 15 year lease, to let it deteriorate, and be returned.

Offline Infinity

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 10:56:43 PM »
Another possible solution would be to shorten the bankruptcy-timer.
Right now it is 6 days, that is far too long. An airline that has had a bankruptcy warning for 6 days is guaranteed to have been beyond repair for at least 3-4 days. A timer of 3 days would be absolutely sufficient. That way, the planes condition would not detoriate too terribly.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 11:15:09 PM »
True, but there is also another scenario of a new player who forgets to schedule A/B checks.  Setting the floor for plane condition would provide some protection for the lessor in that scenario (and AI Broker, if we were to consider them to be AI entities).

Offline Dasha

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2013, 12:09:10 AM »
I agree with this.

Not only for the owner of the aircraft but also for the leaser of the aircraft. If your finances are going to s*** it sometimes might be useful to get rid of some leased airplanes. Rather than paying a fine (which you can't afford) the owner of the airplane should be able to get his plane back. Otherwise we'll end up like Air India, scrapping perfectly new LEASED aircraft.
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Offline Andre

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2013, 02:26:50 PM »
Sounds like a good solution to incorporate this into the Lease Agreement. There must be something like this in real world dry leasing contracts, when the lessee is responsible for maintaining the airliner.

In Airwaysim this could be done like someone suggested earlier, for example if your plane drops below 75% you get 1 warning to fix it within 1 game week (3.5 real hours), or the aircraft will be returned to the lessor and lease contract termination penalty fees will apply (like they already do when you terminate a contract before its due date).

Offline Infinity

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 11:51:06 PM »
It has happened again. 100 A330-300s, one of the most in demand aircraft in the game, were scrapped in a bank closing just now. Something needs to be done here.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 11:53:21 PM »
I really think this feature request should be considered.  The system let an airline fly without C/D check almost a year.  The leased aircraft of this airline were returned to AI broker and ~110 A333s were scrapped.  Also, another ~20 A340-300x scrapped...

No one in real life would allow this to happen...

Offline jamier

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2013, 12:40:05 AM »
This is a disgrace! One of the most in demand aircraft and over 130 scrapped! Shocking!

Offline LemonButt

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 01:16:56 AM »
Another possible solution would be to shorten the bankruptcy-timer.
Right now it is 6 days, that is far too long. An airline that has had a bankruptcy warning for 6 days is guaranteed to have been beyond repair for at least 3-4 days. A timer of 3 days would be absolutely sufficient. That way, the planes condition would not detoriate too terribly.

I agree with this.  I think the noose should tighten based on stats.  If you have a -100 CI and are losing >$25 million/week for more than 4 weeks, you should be toast.  I know part of this is so that the automated email bankruptcy warning can get sent out and give a player time to recover, but if you're that deep in then you've already entered the death spiral and have no chance of recovery after missed maintenance, staff strikes, etc.  Right now there is an airline in DOTM with 10% of the (precious) slots at my slot constrained HQ airport and I may have to end up waiting 6 game months before the actual BK happens and can access those slots on top of the scrapped aircraft issue (he has 200+ aircraft, most are popular models).

IRL the pilots would never pilot these aircraft in such poor condition and they'd end up grounded long before the FAA or otherwise got to them.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 01:46:44 AM »
I think the solution Saft proposed, to re-possess the aircraft, if it falls below certain condition would help out with the protracted bankruptcy period.  The player, with no money to maintain the aircraft would start losing the aircraft, and his airline would become irrelevant quicker, before the bank closes it eventually.

If the airline loses aircraft in horrible condition, the slots of the routes the aircraft was flying would start freeing up sooner.

And a beneficial side effect would be that the lessors will not lose pretty much all their capital invested in the aircraft.

I think the automatic condition for AI brokers could be that the aircraft could not fall 15 points below the initial condition (to account for some aircraft brokers put on the market that may be at ~60% condition).  If all the checks are scheduled properly, the aircraft will not fall 15 points.

And maybe this could extend to player lessors, without lessors having to specify the condition for repossessing aircraft (or players playing games with it).

Offline Sami

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Re: AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 11:14:22 AM »
Added new rules to bankruptcies vs. brokers. Previously it was that plane must be newer than 26yo and in better cond than 40%.

New rules are that it goes to broker if [age<12yo or (condition>30% & age<18yo) or (condition>50% & age<26yo)]. Otherwise scrap.

..and if it's in poor condition, broker will then repair it, and so on. There's no need to make it any more complicated than that.

Offline dmoose42

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Re: [ok] AI-Broker auto retraction
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2013, 02:06:55 PM »
Thanks Sami - I think that's a reasonable solution.

 

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