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Author Topic: [ok] Broker Tweaking/Auctions  (Read 1176 times)

Offline LemonButt

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[ok] Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« on: December 05, 2013, 03:43:03 PM »
Brokers don't seem to be buying aircraft, at least in DOTM.  I have 20+ NAMC YS11-500 for sale, some of which have been listed for more than a year at bargain prices (50% book value).  They are less than 10 years old and it looks like I will be stuck with them for another decade until I can scrap them.

The settings need to be tweaked as I believe they are still set to "normal" game worlds instead of the ultralong where multiple fleet replacements occur.  However, a better option would be to have an "auction" button where the aircraft is sold immediately to brokers at a random price between 50% and 85% of the book value.  IRL even the most unpopular models end up getting purchased for parts, scrap, or sent to developing or third world countries.  This would also solve the heavy maintenance issue as it is a hassle (and expensive) to manually perform C/D-checks on aircraft when you truly want to sell them instead of parking them perpetually.  There could be a limit to 1/week or otherwise to prevent abuse, but the current state of affairs is kind of ridiculous and an auction system would solve the problem of aircraft not getting bought and the used market being polluted by aircraft in need of heavy maintenance.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 02:02:36 PM by sami »

Offline Sami

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 03:46:45 PM »
Someone made a good point that why brokers should give you "free money" when players won't lease/buy the plane either? Since most likely brokers cannot sell it then either.

(Brokers are getting the planes, but only every now and then.)


..my point mainly, that if you cannot get rid of the planes on the used market, why should the AI buy them and make the game easier?

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 04:06:45 PM »
Someone made a good point that why brokers should give you "free money" when players won't lease/buy the plane either? Since most likely brokers cannot sell it then either.

(Brokers are getting the planes, but only every now and then.)


..my point mainly, that if you cannot get rid of the planes on the used market, why should the AI buy them and make the game easier?

It's not a matter of brokers giving "free money"--it's a matter of opportunity cost.  If I buy an aircraft and am nearly guaranteed to be stuck with it for 20 years, why buy an aircraft at all?  IRL there are aircraft brokers and also investment brokers (VC etc) that will buy up aircraft as an investment, whether it be for scrap metal or otherwise.  Allegiant Air buys up MD-80 for as little as $4 million and refurbishes them and puts them in service.

Right now, my <10 year old planes are parked and the game won't let me scrap them, nor will it let me drop the price to $0 just to get rid of them, so what's a guy to do?  $100 in cash is worth more to me than an aircraft collecting dust.  The fact is I paid millions for my aircraft and today it is effectively worth $0 because I can't scrap it and in order to sell it I have to keep pouring money into maintenance.  In the accounting world, it would be "salvage cost".  I'm simply asking for a way to dispose of these assets and be done with them versus having them on the balance sheet for another decade for no reason.  If it were a real airline, shareholders would be p***ed at the board for having dead assets providing no return.  It is better to sell an aircraft for $100 and get a 1% return on interest versus a $10 million asset earning a 0% or negative return.

I am a large airline with good enough cashflow that I can afford to not sell them and wait it out until I can scrap them, but this isn't really a solution for anything except achievement whoring.  Perhaps a better explanation would be "scrap or auction" where you are guaranteed the scrap value, but there is a small chance a broker buys it for a slightly higher price and doesn't scrap it (based on market conditions or otherwise).

Hwoarang

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 07:04:08 PM »
As Sami pointed out, brokers buying more easily unused aircraft would be useless. It would be better to adjust the rule regarding scrapping planes ;)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 09:07:50 PM »
One thing that was already changed, but maybe should be changed further is how low brokers are will go with an unwanted / unpopular aircraft.  I think the brokers should go further down, to 50% even down to 30% of the value of the aircraft.

Basically, there is an amount of money system has set as a scrap value.  The broker price should go all the way down to that value, and only if it is still not leased or sold at that price (once or twice) they should scrap the aircraft.

Case in point: 744 in MT9.  Sometimes, this aircraft gets listed at maybe 70% of value, but I don't recall it going below.  But at the same time, there are 201 scrapped 744s.  Brokers could have had that aircraft leased, A/B/C/D checks done, and brokers would still have the asset...

At the same time, players (especially players starting late) would get the unwanted aircraft at a big discount, making it easier to start late...

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 09:23:33 PM »
One thing that was already changed, but maybe should be changed further is how low brokers are will go with an unwanted / unpopular aircraft.  I think the brokers should go further down, to 50% even down to 30% of the value of the aircraft.

Basically, there is an amount of money system has set as a scrap value.  The broker price should go all the way down to that value, and only if it is still not leased or sold at that price (once or twice) they should scrap the aircraft.

Case in point: 744 in MT9.  Sometimes, this aircraft gets listed at maybe 70% of value, but I don't recall it going below.  But at the same time, there are 201 scrapped 744s.  Brokers could have had that aircraft leased, A/B/C/D checks done, and brokers would still have the asset...

At the same time, players (especially players starting late) would get the unwanted aircraft at a big discount, making it easier to start late...

It sounds like the best solution is to have a scrap button regardless of age.  When you scrap it, a broker buys it, heavy checks are updated, and lists it for their rock bottom price for 3-6 months (to the benefit of late joiners or other players looking for cheap metal).  If the broker can't find someone to buy/lease in 6 months, it gets scrapped in the game.  Would keep the used market much "cleaner".  It would be win-win-win for the aircraft owner, broker, and new owner.

ucfknightryan

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 10:08:52 PM »
One thing that was already changed, but maybe should be changed further is how low brokers are will go with an unwanted / unpopular aircraft.  I think the brokers should go further down, to 50% even down to 30% of the value of the aircraft.

Basically, there is an amount of money system has set as a scrap value.  The broker price should go all the way down to that value, and only if it is still not leased or sold at that price (once or twice) they should scrap the aircraft.

Case in point: 744 in MT9.  Sometimes, this aircraft gets listed at maybe 70% of value, but I don't recall it going below.  But at the same time, there are 201 scrapped 744s.  Brokers could have had that aircraft leased, A/B/C/D checks done, and brokers would still have the asset...

At the same time, players (especially players starting late) would get the unwanted aircraft at a big discount, making it easier to start late...

Both parts of this makes a lot of sense.  Allowing broker prices to go down to just above scrap price for aircraft that can't be leased would keep more aircraft viable as starting options. 

And allowing people to scrap relatively new aircraft that they don't want and can't sell would still allow them to extract some value from the frames in a reasonable way without flooding the market with aircraft that no one wants from players who can't get rid of them.  Though imo this is less of an issue than it used to be with all the new filtering tools for the used market.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 11:31:40 PM »
Another solution would be to take out a loan using the unwanted aircraft as the asset your borrowing against and default on the loan and let the bank have it :)

Edit: Being able to scrap aircraft at any age would be a pretty epic way to save a failing airline.  When fuel gets high enough, players could scrap unprofitable aircraft for cash, fire the staff, and try to save the airline.  You could see a mega airline with 500 aircraft pare back to 100 basically overnight.  Instead of going bankrupt, they'd just be way smaller.  Right now I've got over $1 billion in CV/assets, but can't even borrow against half of that.  Enabling scrapping would allow a player to tap the rest of their assets for 10 cents on the dollar or whatever it comes to versus just flat out BK'ing due to the credit limits, which would add another layer of gameplay and realism to the game.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 11:35:51 PM by LemonButt »

brique

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2013, 01:22:54 AM »
Leaving aside discussion of 'real life' for the moment (a dull place, best avoided) :

I think there is a question of game-play balance needs resolving in the longer game-worlds : inevitably, desirable new models, whether with improved range, capacity or fuel-efficiency, do not follow neat 15yr cycles of introduction : neither does players expansion and re-fleeting needs : also, once the initial rush of players settles down after a decade or so, the number of new players coming into the used market drops awfully, and stays low : its BK/restart mainly who pretty much soak back up the planes they lost on the BK : well established players dont really need the used market, they can finance new builds, so for them, its for opportunistic buys or short-term cover during re-fleets/expansions.

from my experience broking, the initial decade of an aircrafts life-cycle is not an issue : its when it gets into the 10+yrs it gets troublesome : expensive heavy maints while waiting for a buyer eat away at the soul : I've c-checked some hulls numerous times before they went, or d-checked early just to get rid of the '1.6yrs to d-check' sales-killer tag off them. Alternative is to write them off after 10 yrs then let them rot until the 15yr scrap button shows up

So, the question then is, in the long-game worlds, what exactly is the used market/brokers for? I'd suggest that, once the initial game phase is over, its primary purpose, in-game, should be to keep the production wheels turning by taking unwanted aircraft off players hands, releasing some equity and allowing them to finance the re-fleet to newer models : if they cant do that we will end up with a log-jam of unwanted aircraft and, worse, a paucity of new orders for many types which will then compound further expansion problems by letting production lapse and thus load new-build demand even further onto the favoured few types.

Taking this problem with other requests for parking fees, and it becomes a recipe for a stagnant market, no-one will consider an aircraft with a 10 yr life-span until replacement with a better model : its make your initial choice then sit and wait 15 yrs and hope a better replacement is still around then : unless you are a mega-carrier awash with the green stuff, but thats not all of us.

PS : as an illustration : I've just BK-ed my JA8 airline : it was profitable, very, it never had to borrow a cent : owned all its aircraft, had as many again out leased : issue was I couldnt  face a re-fleet/upgrade of the operational side as moving on just a pair of that type had taken years, never mind adding 25 to the market : okay, Pipers are not the most popular : but my new airline will run Embraer and upgrade within that range : so much for experimentation with new types : back to the old faithfuls and doing things the same way as before, yet again : annual production line closure panics included.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:33:14 AM by brique »

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2013, 01:29:58 AM »
I'd suggest that, once the initial game phase is over, its primary purpose, in-game, should be to keep the production wheels turning by taking unwanted aircraft off players hands, releasing some equity and allowing them to finance the re-fleet to newer models : if they cant do that we will end up with a log-jam of unwanted aircraft and, worse, a paucity of new orders for many types which will then compound further expansion problems by letting production lapse and thus load new-build demand even further onto the favoured few types.

And boom goes the dynamite.  Brokers are not giving "free money" as others have said.  Running a business is nothing more than managing flow, whether it is aircraft, pax, etc.  You can't push a rope, so if brokers aren't performing and pulling aircraft through the process, everything gets backed up as we're witnessing.

ucfknightryan

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2013, 04:33:32 AM »
And boom goes the dynamite.  Brokers are not giving "free money" as others have said.  Running a business is nothing more than managing flow, whether it is aircraft, pax, etc.  You can't push a rope, so if brokers aren't performing and pulling aircraft through the process, everything gets backed up as we're witnessing.

If the brokers can't sell or lease the aircraft then yes they would be giving you free money unless they're paying you scrap price for the aircraft.  The brokers should not be buying aircraft that it has no realistic chance of selling or leasing in a reasonable time.  You are basically asking for them to subsidize a business model that is rather risky.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2013, 08:18:16 AM »
I would say scrap option should be available for younger aircraft as well, but the percentage recovered should be only the same percentage as old aircraft gets that is scrapped.  And younger aircraft that is scrapped should go to Brokers, since it is generally a safe business proposition for them.  They get the aircraft for scrap value, and if it does not lease, they can scrap it themselves for the same value they got it for, so the downside is limited...

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2013, 01:54:01 PM »
If the brokers can't sell or lease the aircraft then yes they would be giving you free money unless they're paying you scrap price for the aircraft.  The brokers should not be buying aircraft that it has no realistic chance of selling or leasing in a reasonable time.  You are basically asking for them to subsidize a business model that is rather risky.

Why don't we just get rid of every aircraft manufacturer except Boeing, Airbus, and McDonald Douglas then?  Those are the only aircraft that are "popular enough" to have serious chances for resale to other players within a reasonable timeframe.  I'm sorry, but I find AWS way too easy and incredibly boring using the "click and deploy" method of just picking up 737s and flying them wherever and making money in spite of myself.

As I said, I have the cashflow and savvy to make it work and hang on to my dead assets for another decade, but I don't think we need more reasons to make the "popular" aircraft the only viable options for players.

ucfknightryan

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2013, 06:55:46 PM »
Why don't we just get rid of every aircraft manufacturer except Boeing, Airbus, and McDonald Douglas then?  Those are the only aircraft that are "popular enough" to have serious chances for resale to other players within a reasonable timeframe.  I'm sorry, but I find AWS way too easy and incredibly boring using the "click and deploy" method of just picking up 737s and flying them wherever and making money in spite of myself.

As I said, I have the cashflow and savvy to make it work and hang on to my dead assets for another decade, but I don't think we need more reasons to make the "popular" aircraft the only viable options for players.

I'm sorry, what?  Why do you think difficulties in reselling the aircraft makes using non Boeing, Airbus, and McDonald Douglas aircraft somehow unviable?  The only reason it's a dead asset is because you chose to stop flying it in spite of having bought it a few years ago.  I'm fine with the idea of you being able to scrap those young aircraft so they aren't sitting around wasting your time but you should not be getting any more than scrap price for an aircraft that is apparently no airlines want to buy or lease. 

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 07:49:48 PM »
I'm sorry, what?  Why do you think difficulties in reselling the aircraft makes using non Boeing, Airbus, and McDonald Douglas aircraft somehow unviable?  The only reason it's a dead asset is because you chose to stop flying it in spite of having bought it a few years ago.  I'm fine with the idea of you being able to scrap those young aircraft so they aren't sitting around wasting your time but you should not be getting any more than scrap price for an aircraft that is apparently no airlines want to buy or lease. 

Because in ultralong game worlds, you can't simply buy an aircraft and fly it to the end of the game world (we've been over this).  It is a systematic problem, not one that is just isolated to my airline although that's where the examples come from.  IRL the DC-3 is still flying, not to mention the slew of other ancient aircraft types still in service.  The problem is the airlines purchasing those aircraft aren't represented in the game.  IMO brokers should be buying above scrap price because that is how the real world works.  Even companies who aren't airlines, like Red Bull, have aircraft in service (Red Bull flies a DC-6B).  It's not so far fetched that aircraft that other players aren't buying have value.

So here is a serious question for you.  If am an airline that wants to fly the less popular models (such as the NAMC YS11-500 which still has ~400 aircraft in service), why on Earth would I ever buy an aircraft?  The BAC 1-11 is about to become permanently unsellable as the production backlog is near zero and the F100 is going into production despite the fact the average age of a BAC 1-11 500 in the game is 9 years (and there are 1250 of them).  I've only got 100 of them, so there are 1150 more out there that are just screwed.

This whole conversation really p***es me off because players who choose to use some brainpower and strategy instead of using a "click and deploy" method of just loading up on 737 and making in spite of themselves are the ones who end up getting screwed in ultralong game worlds.  In previous DOTM scenarios I could buy a plane and fly it the entire scenario because it was only 25-30 years long.  Now that we're forced to do fleet upgrades, it is financial suicide to actually try and "win" with strategy versus playing follow the leader.

Again, I can deal with it because I am a large airline and have the cashflow etc. but it doesn't solve the problem and just makes the game less playable.  Small airlines flying smaller aircraft are the ones who are really going to be hurt by this, I don't think I need to tell you flying small aircraft profitably is much more difficult than larger ones.  Then again, why would we encourage anyone to start a small airline with less popular aircraft when you can just turn off your brain and play follow the leader?

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2013, 08:14:50 PM »
I am not sure where the disagreement is.

Both ucfknightryan and I agree with you that the option to scrap should be available on younger aircraft.  And the scrap price for younger aircraft would be the same percentage-wise as old aircraft. 

So this would be a very simple change, universal, apply equally to young, old, popular and unpopular aircraft.  Are you disagreeing with any of that?

 

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2013, 08:40:33 PM »
I am not sure where the disagreement is.

Both ucfknightryan and I agree with you that the option to scrap should be available on younger aircraft.  And the scrap price for younger aircraft would be the same percentage-wise as old aircraft. 

So this would be a very simple change, universal, apply equally to young, old, popular and unpopular aircraft.  Are you disagreeing with any of that?

I agree with this, but am disagreeing with the whole bit about "free money" which is a ridiculous notion.  Brokers should be buying aircraft above scrap value, but scrap value is better than what we have currently.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2013, 08:53:24 PM »
I agree with this, but am disagreeing with the whole bit about "free money" which is a ridiculous notion.  Brokers should be buying aircraft above scrap value, but scrap value is better than what we have currently.

Agreed.

Sometimes I take my chances, leave an aircraft for sale at 70%, and sometimes I get lucky.

Perhaps another option might be useful: being able to lower price below 70% of value, and the lower the price, the higher the probability of broker (or a player) buying, but again, you are taking your chances, and it will take time.

The only sure thing should be the scrap price, that happens immediately.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 09:04:40 PM »
Agreed.

Sometimes I take my chances, leave an aircraft for sale at 70%, and sometimes I get lucky.

Perhaps another option might be useful: being able to lower price below 70% of value, and the lower the price, the higher the probability of broker (or a player) buying, but again, you are taking your chances, and it will take time.

The only sure thing should be the scrap price, that happens immediately.

You can already lower the price much less than 70% (see attached).  I have over 20 aircraft listed at 50% or less book value that have been on the market for over a year and not a single one has sold.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Broker Tweaking/Auctions
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2013, 09:08:49 PM »
You can already lower the price much less than 70% (see attached).  I have over 20 aircraft listed at 50% or less book value that have been on the market for over a year and not a single one has sold.

Hmm, I was not aware of that.  I guess you are already approaching the scrap price, but I take it you can't scrap because the aircraft is too young.  I think adding the scrap option on new aircraft would be something that would help you in this case.

 

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