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Author Topic: [ok] Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer  (Read 1689 times)

Offline Dasha

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I rather enjoy playing small regional airlines and I'm happy about the changes already made to support them. However if you join a game in a later stage, like in MT (I started in 2001), the small aircraft (under 40 seats) all have stopped production.

In reality these aircraft (Cessna Caravans and Pilatus PC12 for example) don't get much orders from airlines but they do get orders from private customers or other general aviation parties.

Would it be possible to keep these lines open a bit longer? Even if I had started out with the ability to get those planes new, there's no way you get enough money to keep the line open long enough.

I think there should be a criteria on which to leave open longer and which can close at the normal rate but a specialistic aircraft like the ones I've mentioned have a longer order rate and lower back log than for example the A320 or B737.

Am I the only one who wants this or are there more small bird freaks that would like to fly with planes with less than 20 seats?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 11:42:49 AM by sami »
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Offline Wing Commander Chad Studdington

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2013, 03:57:26 PM »
I'd have to agree.

I have seen quite a few useful smaller aircraft will close their lines very quickly. As OP says the Caravan is a good example. Been in production since 1984 in reality, in game closes very very quickly.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2013, 04:23:24 PM »
Also agree : not sure how it can be resolved, but it is an issue and makes long-term planning a bit of a lottery : an extension from a six-month to 12month warning for smaller types might help us little-birders.

BD

  • Former member
Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 07:15:14 PM »
Seems to be a problem for all props except maybe the Fokkers.

Some additional related discussion (e.g. increase threshold to reduce auto scrapping of small aircraft) on this here:

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,33078.msg277424.html#msg277424

Perhaps, for these aircraft, the production lines and scrapping could be based on some dynamic algorithm that accounts for the number of players using these props vs a one size fits all fixed setting it may be at right now.  Maybe the algorithm can be specific to types of aircraft as surely a Piper vs a Fokker would have a different demand profile.


Offline Dasha

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2013, 07:52:10 PM »
Fokkers and ATR's are the only props on sale halfway during the MT games and for a lot of fun and interesting routes, they are massively oversized.

@brique, although it would help to get a years notice, you need to have a lot of money to buy/order enough planes to keep the production line open, which could be a problem if you fly these little birds. They're not exactly the gold mines that some other types are.

That said, does anybody know if we get smaller planes on the NEW market in MT? And by small planes I mean less than 40 seats.
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Offline Wing Commander Chad Studdington

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 11:27:57 PM »
That said, does anybody know if we get smaller planes on the NEW market in MT? And by small planes I mean less than 40 seats.

Only ones below 40 still available is the An-28s (27), EMB-120s (30) and ERJ-135s (37)

Offline Dasha

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2013, 10:43:43 PM »
Way too big and pretentious for me :D

I want my Cessna Caravans :D
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Hwoarang

  • Former member
Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 12:53:19 AM »
I had suggested something like this in the "Long game worlds (1950-2030)" thread.

After X number of productions/orders (break even point) the production line will stay open for a longer time than usual so that the production can continue or atleast until the manufacturer comes up with a replacement model (Fokker 50 for Fokker F27, Fokker 100 for Fokker F28, etc).

Offline Dasha

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2013, 09:02:38 AM »
I had suggested something like this in the "Long game worlds (1950-2030)" thread.

After X number of productions/orders (break even point) the production line will stay open for a longer time than usual so that the production can continue or atleast until the manufacturer comes up with a replacement model (Fokker 50 for Fokker F27, Fokker 100 for Fokker F28, etc).

Did you get any replies from the game makers?
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Hwoarang

  • Former member
Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 10:14:08 PM »
Did you get any replies from the game makers?
Unfortunately not, but since it wasn't a specific feature request, I can't blame Sami for not replying. I'm happy that you have started a similar thread.

The current production system forces you to end up with the popular aircraft types on the longer run. I would like to expand my Fokker F28 fleet in the near future, but now I have to wait for the -3000 and -4000 models to be launched and in the worst scenario need to wait for the Fokker 100 (I want to keep an all-Fokker fleet this game).

Offline Dasha

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 09:27:55 AM »
I've been doing some more thinking about this.

Maybe for a (small) fee paid to the manufacturer, an airline can keep the production line open for another year. So without having to buy or lease an actual plane, paying x amount of dollars will keep the production line open. Or maybe a fixed number has to be paid to the manufacturer and the airlines that want to keep the line open, can 'donate' money towards reaching that goal. When there isn't enough money and the line closes anyway, the airlines get their money back.

I really think something should be done about this issue rather soon because in the current MT, things are looking rather bleak for the small birds. :(
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

BD

  • Former member
Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 03:28:33 PM »
Maybe for a (small) fee paid to the manufacturer, an airline can keep the production line open for another year.
Interesting idea.

Effect might be that all production lines stay open, if fee was small enough.  If it was too high, would impact regional/island hopper airlines most.  Also, there is a free rider effect, with burden falling on the one airline paying (assuming more than one may want that particular model).

Still, this might provide relief as a temporary patch.  But, ultimately, this needs some kind of "awareness" built into the logic that considers a few point in time game factors (e.g. number of airlines flying smaller aircraft, growth rate of these airlines, availability of similar types of aircraft, etc.) aimed at props / lower pax models.  Not sure what the incremental additional effort is for this over a payment solution, once the program is opened up for a change.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 03:57:25 PM »
Perhaps what's needed is a form of optioning mechanism :  say something like 5-10% of the purchase price is paid as a non-returnable deposit : this then reserves a production slot after a given date : (say 1 year after the last current order, to stop folk gaming the system to hog production on popular models?) : if production slots get taken up by 'fully paid' orders, that 'option date' gets moved on to keep that gap : if the option is converted into an actual order it takes the next free production slot after the last current order : so no sneaking up the queue that way : if the option date falls due with no actual order, deposit is lost and, as there would be no other orders current for that to happen, the line would come under the usual threat of closure.

Hopefully, this would keep the manufacturers happy with prospective future builds and allow some lines to be kept open for future expansion beyond the current six-month panic gap.

No doubt there are some holes in this proposal need filling, but its a start point, perhaps?

Offline Monica

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2013, 03:51:44 AM »
Maybe the Small aircraft category could change so that only 1/2 or 1/3 of the normal number of orders are needed to keep the production line open. And make the manufacturer twice as patient with regards to keeping the production line of Small aircraft open. That shouldn't be a huge problem to implement I think?

Offline Dasha

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2013, 07:20:48 PM »
I like that idea. Wish sami would let us know something.
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

BD

  • Former member
Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2013, 04:23:24 PM »
Maybe the Small aircraft category could change so that only 1/2 or 1/3 of the normal number of orders are needed to keep the production line open. And make the manufacturer twice as patient with regards to keeping the production line of Small aircraft open. That shouldn't be a huge problem to implement I think?
Simple and effective.  Good idea.  ;D

Offline Dasha

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2013, 12:02:47 PM »
Any response from the game makers on this subject?

Would be appreciated :)
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

BD

  • Former member
Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 02:22:46 AM »
I want to add this comment from brique as it seems relevant to how long game format affects this issue...

Sanabas has a point : but up to a point : if rotating fleets becomes too difficult, in terms of getting rid of the older types, then it will act as a drag on re-fleets and so planes will tend to start getting flown until scrap age : all well and good, but then we will also see a lot more types going out of production early : some types may never get ordered at all if their intro date falls inside many operators 'dead zone' for fleet replacements : that is, its too soon to scrap your old ones unless you fancy, or can afford, seeing them sit on the market for years : and so we all will end up chasing the same few types that we can be certain will stay in production : nice for Boring and Hairbrush afficianados, a bit dull for the rest of us though.
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,50655.msg286169.html#msg286169

Offline 11Air

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2013, 01:44:53 PM »
Reply 12 has a good possibility. What I find as a new airline in an established world is that I can't afford to make block purchases, I can't finance them.
I could make sequential orders (book manufacturing slots) with a decent deposit (20%? non-refundable) which fail if my Bank can't make a second payment (40%) to confirm a production order. These advance orders, with a reasonably limited time span, would also work like the real world in keeping Manufacturing open while there is still a demand.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Leave Production list on specific aircraft open a little longer.
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2013, 03:02:35 AM »
So I have a serious concern that I'm hoping sami will address.  I am in DOTM6 and flying the BAe ATP.  It has been in production for almost 2 years now.  I own every single BAe ATP every produced and am the only one with orders in.  The production line has been open for almost 2 years and obviously I am the only one flying them, but aren't brokers supposed to be buying whitetails for the used market?  My concern is that if I don't single-handedly keep the production line open then I'm basically screwed and might as well start retiring them because it will be impossible to expand using 60 seaters without adding another fleet type.  Another quasi-issue is that I won't be able to ever sell my ATPs, which means I will have to scrap them, which I can't do until they are 10 years old. 

So if my options are to own every BAe ATP ever made and screw myself if I don't singlehandedly keep the production line open and be forced to add a fleet type in the 60-seater category OR plan on using only the most popular models to replace my ATP (so I can actually sell them) after 10yrs and scrap them, you can see why I am concerned... :/  Are there whitetails in our future?

 

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