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Author Topic: Beloved B757's dead  (Read 2435 times)

Offline travelair

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Beloved B757's dead
« on: October 20, 2013, 10:28:19 AM »
I havent been playing the game for about 18 month - a few things have changed when I came back.
One on them is this sentence:

"This aircraft type may be too small for this route.
Passengers prefer to fly long routes with larger aircraft types and if you choose this aircraft type to this route you may not be able to attract all of the passenger demand."

Maybe someone who was present when this change was implemented could share some insight as to why it was? So it basically disqualifies the B757 on lh routes, if there is any competition, or any narrowbody for that matter, which has any range. Again, why even bother having these types in the game at all then? B757's have a range between 2-4k nm...One used to able to fly B737-700 on thin routes, now you just stick a A310 on there, no matter if you operate 30% over capacity ???

Is there a range limit, where pax accept these types, eventhough some competitor has widebody service? As I dont have any, I couldnt try it out. Also, what happened to the fact that pax prefer newer planes? So as long as you operate a 20 year old A300, people would rater ride on that, than on a factory new B757? I dont get it... :-\ And I was wondering why there a not many orders for the 757.

This change really reflects reality perfectly - Delta, United and many others are just loosing tons of money with their 757's across the Atlantic, because very few al's operate B767's which they prefer, no matter what   ::)

What ever happend to the proposed changes, that the makers of this game where discussing 2 years ago, which would really be important for this game: Put an end to ppl flying muliple freq. within 5 minutes. No al does this in reallity. And please dont bring up the argument that in Japan they do... why not put in a limit of at least 30 mins on routes with high demand and 60 mins on low demand route pairs?

But alot more pressing and something, that should have been implemented a long time ago, make turn-around times dependent on actual pax configuation of the plane used. For instance, a 772 needs the same time turn to around as a 773, eventough it carries 100 pax more. This applies to all types. Please, it cant be that difficult to change that? Just imagine how this change would affect us all in a positive manner! If this is planed for the future, fine - but we need it asap.

Instead, you effectively kill all nb planes on any route that has any competition.  ??? I sometime dont understand the priorities here.
I wish I could programm this kind of stuff, maybe I should invest a few $ and hire some Indian software company to do it  :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 10:34:41 AM by travelair »

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 11:37:52 AM »
We had those discussions over and over, so please have a look at some archived topics before starting this again.The 757 was not built as a regular trans-atlantic plane and neither was the Airbus 321. The limitations of the game were introduced because game mechanics were out of balance in their case, making it impossible to cross the atlantic with anything bigger profitably. One reason is game not taking account of the additional cargo loads a WB can transport.You still can try to use those planes on smaller routes, where you wonīt face competition, like the RL carriers do that, too.
Your remarks about departure times are simply out of any reason because that was fixed additionally to small plane limitations. 5-minute gaps will hurt your LF really bad with the exception of routes with the demand  of some thousand on a short distance (when small planes work, too.) The smaller the route, the bigger your gaps have to be to fill your airplanes to demand.
Turn-around times have been discussed to nausea during your absence. It is not possible to design a different turn-around time for birds of one family for scheduling reasons. You are able to turn your birds at any possible time and risk a bit more delays, as Sami never intended everybody to use 100%- turn-around times.You can easily use less and heal eventual CI-hits with more marketing.
Why not try to make yourself acquainted with the newly designed rules in Samiīs announcement forum, instead of asking for excuses/explanations why we all didnīt keep your beloved features or didnīt change the game to your wishes while you were gone?
Just because your ancient techniques apparently now fail you assume this and that as "broken". Nonsense. Itīs for you, nothing else. Cope and adapt as we all do.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 11:42:02 AM by exchlbg »

Offline travelair

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 01:06:35 PM »
Thx for replying - although dividing your text into a few pargraphs might make it a bit easier to read.

So you expect me and other ppl who start the game as new players to go through archives that are years old? I dont think its absurd to ask these questions..
Then tell me for what a 4000nm range 757 is build then ??? To fly 90min sectors? Your explanation is non-sense, sorry. If demand justifies it, you can easily put a large plane oh the route, Im not talking about flooding JFK-LHR with a slew of 757's  ::) I asked what is the range limit for nb's to have pax accept it, you dont know I assume? Or will they prefer a wb on a 500nm route too?

Dep. times have been fixed, great, I can show you enough examples of smaller routes where ppl still schedule flights within minutes and it doesnt seems to affect their market share at all...but being in full defense mode, why should I try to convince you?

Where am I saying these feature are broken or that I want them changed just for me? Im just questioning the reason behind them, as do many others Im sure, not everyone has been devoted to this game from day 1... So hes able to change everything in the game, but turn around times who take into account the pax config are impossible to adjust? Who would have thought  :-[

I fly all my routes with 1% delay possibilty, yet my delays because of too short-turn around are still quite noticable. Care to explain what some ppl who schedule 777's with min. times on DFW-LHR for example must be seeing for numbers then? So it was never intended to, I guess like 757's flying trans atlantic  ::)

Youre answers to some of the questions are vague at best, just pointing me to search the archives, thx... honestly, why even bother to put in the effort to reply at all?
 
 

« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 01:08:47 PM by travelair »

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 01:26:21 PM »
Yes, why bother ?
I should have noticed that finally the first player with a clear mind for years stepped into this mess to ask reasonable questions , why we all could have been so blind not to see whatīs really obvious ?
Why should you bother to look for possible explanations in year-old archives, who else but you could have found out what goes wrong in this game , was changed whithout reason or wasnīt changed
because you didnīt force it ? I should have cheered.We all should have.Sorry.
And I should use more of those scientific little signs in my posts to make it readable like yours.Iīm still learning.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 01:28:33 PM by exchlbg »

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 01:40:06 PM »
All you have to do is read the updates thread.  The point isn't a 4000nm aircraft can go 4000nm, but that an aircraft designed for 4 hour flights is being put on an 8 hour route, which reduces passenger comfort.  Sure it can be used, but you can also use a CRJ on a 5 hour long 2000nm route, but that doesn't mean passengers will like it.

Offline travelair

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 02:55:03 PM »
exchlgb: I much prefer the answer LemonButt has given. Irony is fun to use, but your last post consisting purely of that, its just tedious to read. And its in no way constructive  ??? Put a solid argument togther, please.
I'm not talking about smileys, there are here for a reason, perhaps you should continue learning...ein Absatz hier und da hätte schon gereicht.

Now Lemon, ironically, if there is no competition, pax dont mind stepping on board a nb... I understand the argument, that some wb, especially those close to pax count with 752/753's might be of disadvantage, but why do the players have to compensate for that. Its the manufacturers faul really, as time goes by planes get better. But I accept that you had a discussion about it some time ago, too bad I wasnt around during that time :P
And if turn-around times would be variable, a 762 would be alot more attractive compared to nb's... the reason this is not possible has been explained elaboratly  by exchlgb  ::) This feature would elevate the game to the next level!

Where does it say a B757 is designed for 4h trips? Also, seat comfort is what counts, is it not? And its good in all classes....why cant there be a touch of realism in this simulation?
Please can anybody tell me max. distance where pax accept a nb compared to a wb? Its essential to know for my futher fleet planing, + it saves me alot of time fishing through the update notes...

« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 02:58:42 PM by travelair »

altmants

  • Former member
Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 03:20:01 PM »
how far are you flying your 757s? The sweet spot I noticed for the 757 is right around the 3000nm destinations.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 03:26:20 PM »
If you have no competition, the plane size is largely irrelevant to the game engine if I'm not mistaken.  You shouldn't plan on never having competition though, so best practice is to use the right plane the first time so your competitors don't see your routes as low hanging fruit.

And it's not the manufacturers fault.  The CRJ705 can go 2000nm,  but doesn't mean it should.  The rule of thumb is to not fly an aircraft longer than 10x the pax count, so a 50 seater you wouldn't want to fly more than 500nm, a 100 seater 1000nm, etc.  That would put the B757 maxing out around 2000nm, which interestingly enough is the baseline range for the -200 variant.  Once you start flying 2000nm+ it is the law of diminishing returns due to fuel burn vs revenue.  It is this same reason that flying a 777 on a 10000nm route and maxing out the range won't be profitable.

Another part of the game engine is the fact that the 757 is classified as a large aircraft whereas the more appropriate aircraft (767 and larger) are classified as very large.  If you put any large aircraft on the route, you will get the warning--not just the 757.  The 717 with only 100pax is also classified as a large aircraft--the B757 is on the absolute highest range of the large aircraft classification.  It is also important to note that aircraft classifications change over time.  A very large aircraft from the 1960s will be considered a medium aircraft in the 2000s, for example.

So really it comes down to classification.  You have to draw a line somewhere and one of the reason a 757 can print money is because they are flown by "large" pilots and not "very large".  So if you change the classification to very large, then you'll be giving the 737 a huge advantage as the largest 737 is the same size as the smallest 757.  There are plenty of imperfect examples in the game, such as the F100 being medium and the B717 being large despite having the same capacity.

In the end, the whole reason for the warning is to prevent frequency bombing and slot abuse.  If you're based at LHR, you shouldn't be flying to JFK 8x daily with a B757--you should be flying 2x daily with a B777 or A380.  This is somewhat of an extreme example, but the point is you shouldn't be flying 3000nm+ routes to slot restrained airports every hour with smaller aircraft, but larger aircraft less frequently.  A perfect example is in a previous MT game I was at SFO and flew the SFO-JFK route 24x daily with MD-90s and had a flight leaving every hour.  Completely inappropriate, but due to the game mechanics at the time no one could compete against me on the route.  Hopefully with the implementation of terminals and having an exclusive slot pool, the aircraft size becomes a nonissue.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 03:41:41 PM »
As I recall, another aspect of the NB v WB debate was that the game doesnt reflect the role that cargo revenue plays in making WB the better LH choice in real life : this cant really be sorted properly until 'cargo', as a separate revenue element, is implemented in the game. But that's also an issue for aircraft like the various combi's which never get a fair shake either.

So, the solution is/was a bit of a fudge, to keep the game playable but still within the bounds of 'realism' if not totally accurate.

Offline Mr.HP

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 04:09:47 PM »

Please can anybody tell me max. distance where pax accept a nb compared to a wb? Its essential to know for my futher fleet planing, + it saves me alot of time fishing through the update notes...

As I remember in last MT, on a thin route (~200 pax demand), it doesn't really matter how far, B752 won't be flagged as mini-plane. For bigger routes (> 400), B752 can go trans continent (long haul international) up to 2500 nm or so; and up to 3500nm within continent (DXB-HKG for example)

I might be wrong as I don't keep track of data, and I don't fancy using B752

Also, the matter with B752 being too small seems to happen only in MT era. In DOTM, flying B752 on EWR-LHR with 3000 demand doesn't trigger the mini-plane warning

Offline Infinity

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 04:37:57 PM »
The 757 sucks economically, so no reason at all to complain about it's lack of versatility under the new rule. It's only another incentive to not use that crap heap.

Offline travelair

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 08:54:30 PM »
The 757 sucks economically, so no reason at all to complain about it's lack of versatility under the new rule. It's only another incentive to not use that crap heap.

I wonder what makes you say that? Pls show me a more efficient plane - http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/New/View/28/
Well its still, if you find a route with no competition...

I have an idea, it might have been mentioned during the discussion and rejected or else it might be slammed straight into the ground by some ppl: To offset the nb-nerf, and give them back some viability on lh, you should be able to make it more attractive to the spoiled pax via ticket price? 10-15% off gives you a few more %LF, if your RI ist really high enough. I dont think its the case atm, at least I couldnt see a difference.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:57:21 PM by travelair »

brique

  • Former member
Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2013, 09:31:27 PM »
You really need to go through the updates thread : pricing is now far more effective than a year ago : there used to be a 'death cliff' which, if you raised prices to it, resulted in the pax running away screaming : Not so, now you can raise prices up to the 150% mark and, if you have no competition and sufficient demand, you'll sell those seats, given decent RI. Likewise, in reverse, lowering prices now works much better and also attracts a sort of 'bonus' demand, you can gain pax above the 'official' demand figures as long as your pricing stays low enough to draw them into the airport.

Even with the small aircraft warning, you can still fly the route : you may have to price it lower to keep your market share up if competing on it, and some-one flying the 'right' aircraft will be advantaged, but it still possible to operate them at a profit, just not always a great one.

Its not all doom and gloom, I've operated small aircraft versus big competitors on a route and come away with decent loads and profits : just accept you are never going to dominate it but your market share/Ri/CI can still give you enough pax to have decent LF's at decent prices, and the more the competition cuts prices to attract the bigger loads, the more pax show up at the airport for you to poach.

Offline Monica

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2013, 01:46:16 AM »
I'm probably a little late, but I just wanted to say something in the narrowbody vs widebody debate.

I put a Boeing 757 on a 3500 NM trans-atlantic route with competition by a DC-10 in DOTM. Demand is on average 380 pax, and supply is 479 pax. By dropping my prices 10%, my load factor is now 96.5% on the Boeing 757, and it's one of my most profitable planes. :) It has standard seating btw.

Offline Mr.HP

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2013, 06:12:18 AM »
I'm probably a little late, but I just wanted to say something in the narrowbody vs widebody debate.

I put a Boeing 757 on a 3500 NM trans-atlantic route with competition by a DC-10 in DOTM. Demand is on average 380 pax, and supply is 479 pax. By dropping my prices 10%, my load factor is now 96.5% on the Boeing 757, and it's one of my most profitable planes. :) It has standard seating btw.

In DOTM era, B757 doesn't have trouble with trans-atlantic, as I observe. Even flying B757 on EWR-LHR (3000 demand) is OK. But in MT, it does; and the OP is talking about MT

Offline Monica

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2013, 04:58:03 PM »
In DOTM era, B757 doesn't have trouble with trans-atlantic, as I observe. Even flying B757 on EWR-LHR (3000 demand) is OK. But in MT, it does; and the OP is talking about MT

Oh I thought it was the same settings in both game worlds.

Online schro

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2013, 10:53:22 PM »
Oh I thought it was the same settings in both game worlds.

The plane is too small penalty is also indexed against the game year, so when dotm moves into modern times, the impact will appear.

Offline tcrlaf

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2013, 07:32:55 PM »
"If you're based at LHR, you shouldn't be flying to JFK 8x daily with a B757--you should be flying 2x daily with a B777 or A380. "

REALLY??? I'd have to disagree...
American Airlines Schedule for Friday, Nov 1, 2013

Nov 1   AA 6143   JFK   9:30AM   LHR   8:15PM   6h 45m   nonstop
$2,355.00
Nov 1   AA 142       JFK   11:00AM   LHR   9:45PM   6h 45m   nonstop
$1,632.00
Nov 1   AA 100   JFK   7:15PM   LHR   6:20AM   7h 5m   nonstop
$1,632.00
Nov 1   AA 6133   JFK   7:30PM   LHR   6:25AM   6h 55m   nonstop
$7,570.00
Nov 1   AA 6141   JFK   8:20PM   LHR   7:20AM   7h 0m   nonstop
$7,570.00
Nov 1   AA 106   JFK   8:35PM   LHR   7:35AM   7h 0m   nonstop
$7,570.00
Nov 1   AA 6137   JFK   9:15PM   LHR   8:15AM   7h 0m   nonstop
$7,570.00
Nov 1   AA 104   JFK   9:40PM   LHR   8:35AM   6h 55m   nonstop
$1,632.00
Nov 1   AA 6212   JFK   9:55PM   LHR   8:45AM   6h 50m   nonstop
$7,570.00
Nov 1   AA 6135   JFK   10:30PM   LHR   9:25AM   6h 55m   nonstop
$7,570.00
Nov 1   AA 6145   JFK   11:55PM   LHR   10:50AM   6h 55m   nonstop
$7,570.00

8x777, 3x747

Offline SAC

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2013, 08:01:35 PM »
AA do not have 747's so there are some codeshares in there with BA.

However, you are still right...BA fly LHR-JFK a massive 12 times daily, then Virgin and Delta also have 6 flights each.

That said though I am sure there are quite a few UA 757's in LHR everyday, and if you move up the road to MAN there are even more 757's from all the major US airlines, so 757's do, even in 2013, very regularly operate LH flights quite successfully.
...it's not over until I say it's over

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Beloved B757's dead
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2013, 11:02:14 PM »
It is 12x daily with American Airlines, British Airways, and Iberia combined.  BA flies 8x daily with 5x B777 and 3x B747.  American flies all B777 on that route.  The point of my comment was clearly not the frequency, but the aircraft size that was important.  If you prefer, I could have easily said you shouldn't be flying 24x daily with a B757, but 12x daily with a B777/747.  Either way the point stands--you should be flying big birds less frequently versus narrowbodies every hour.

 

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