AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER  (Read 2214 times)

brique

  • Former member
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 12:20:15 PM »
Yea, it is really no difference between taking a risk that only you yourself can fail at or taking a risk on which's outcome you have no influence. You are right. I am sorry I was so dumb, how could I ever think that taking risk had anything to do with risk evaluation...

You really don't get it, do you? I am not complaining about a change made to the slot system, everyone knows it's crap. I am just complaining about the MANNER in which those changes were made. Unforewarned, immediate, midgame. And the system is still crap after the change. It is one thing to get your planning crossed by a revision that benefits the game, but getting it crossed by something just as dumb as the previous system is twice as annoying.

old system : you order planes in the hope that when they arrive, you manage to be first to the slot-drop and thus can schedule them so they go earn money.

new system : you order planes in the hope that when they arrive, you manage to be first to the slot drop and thus can schedule them so they go earn money.

What's changed? How many slots you can afford to buy when they drop and also, how many slots may be left for you to buy if you are not first on-line after the drop.

Which constitutes the greater risk of leaving more non-earning, cost-accumulating aircraft on the ground when you evaluate your purchase decision? Dunno about you, but seems clear enough to me.


Offline Infinity

  • Members
  • Posts: 1564
    • Aviation Awareness
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 12:23:49 PM »
-
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 06:28:25 AM by saftfrucht »

brique

  • Former member
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2013, 12:27:55 PM »
NO. WHY THE HELL DO YOU NOT GET IT. I ALREADY ORDERED THESE PLANES. Of course it does make a difference if the grounds on which I ordered them are taken away. God you can really make a guy aggressive with your excessive stupidity.

okay, we disagree ; no need to get abusive about it : conversation closed.

Online JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5992
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2013, 12:28:58 PM »
Stop mooning.  Putting the price up for slot hoggers, i an FINE short term solution.
The other thing surely takes much longer to make. So a fine solution in short terms.

Slot hogging is one who uses aircraft too small for the route.  The new system does not make this determination.  It indiscriminately punishes larger airlines.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 12:33:40 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline Teadaze

  • Members
  • Posts: 777
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2013, 12:32:47 PM »
I do repeat : what is the difference between a plane (leased or otherwise) sitting waiting for slot-drops under the old system and a plane (leased or otherwise) sitting waiting for a slot drop under the new system?

None at all ; what does change is that grabbing all the slots when they do drop and quickly scheduling them onto the waiting planes is going to be a much more expensive business, even prohibitively so : thus it will happen less and more slots will be left for others to claim for their planes (leased or otherwise) sitting waiting on the tarmac for the next slot drop.

And that other person may be you, wanting to fly into another currently slot-locked airport : two way street, isnt it?

broken English incomming

 popular plane such as 737classic(DOTM)/dc10(DOTM)/330(MT)/DC8,707(JA) gets pushed to upward to 5-6 years if you don't prioritize getting them when the world first started because everyone and their mother is leasing them, as UM is limited and will run out very quickly. It's one thing if you run a small regional airline only needing fokker or caravelle. When the omelette and eggs feel they are comfortable ordering them.. they are either a) not available in UM b) the queue is 5 years out. Try running 727 in major airport @ China at DOTM because you cannot get 732 and bac in time and you will understand.

(we will use the very inflated calculation since the problem/conversation started from there)
Back to your question. let's say an ORD airline have ~20 737NG and ~15 a320 ordered as delivery every month, he is somewhat a slot leader but competition is very fierce. You make some money but due to your business is mainly domestic, everyone can fly into your route being in USA and you can expand so much due to the amount of demand available.

all of a sudden it cost 25+m to grab a set of slot, your 737 will cost you 3m to initial lease, but 75m to grab..... 737 and a320 has a rough delivery rate of 3 aircraft / 2 month. So you are talking about 6 aircraft *2-3 route / day = 126 slot required(we have yet to talk about UM expansion)= 450m to schedule 6 aircraft. He simply can't afford to do it.. then with lease from plane being grounded, loan, and competition kick him along with fuel... he is pretty much on the death watch. While the person who care less about the world, a late starter can fully enjoy cheap cost to catch up, and even attack the leader's route. I don't know.... if that is your vision of perfect AWS world then I am not too sure what to say any more.

obviously the new adjustment made now seem to be somewhat more reasonable.. but only time will tell as nobody know the real value, and how much will it impact if you are too rich. Not to mention. The top player who have top profit will not get hinder too hard on this. People who have a lead in their airport, middle of the pack in the game world and unable to make too much money will truly get hurt by this change.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 12:45:07 PM by Aoitsuki »

Offline Sanabas

  • Members
  • Posts: 2161
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 02:51:00 PM »
I look forward to the exaggerated complaint posts in a couple of game months, when lots of people open up their first base airport. It's communism if it ends up with some actual fair, long term competition? Yeah right.  :laugh:

Think this change will really hurt those attempting to run regional airlines, those who let things run for a week and then schedule in bulk when they get a few free hours, etc. Might make the default playstyle of grabbing every slot possible whenever a new set appear not work anywhere near as well, but I think there'll be some serious unintended consequences.

Quote from: Jumboshrimp
Slot hogging is one who uses aircraft too small for the route.  The new system does not make this determination.  It indiscriminately punishes larger airlines.

I would say the exact opposite. Slot hogging is making a conscious effort to buy as many slots as possible, to limit your direct competition to as few slots as possible. Using smaller aircraft out of an airport that is not going to be persistently slot-locked requires buying a lot of slots at once, up to 105 for 3 turboprops, is certainly not slot hogging, but the new system will not make an allowance for that. It is smaller airlines, short haul airlines, in size 5 but not slot-locked airports that will be indiscriminately punished.

It is going to be longhaul airlines, starting in big airports, that will be punished the least, because they get the most revenue for the least number of slots. Exactly the same way that starting with 2 x DC10 as your initial planes is the best way, by far, to start growing explosively. 35 weekly slots is enough for 7 LH planes, or 2-3 a320s, or just 1 turboprop. Limiting explosive growth at the start of the world is something I'm 100% in favour of. But doing it this way is going to offer huge advantages to LH over regional, even more than it does now. They can get 7 times as many planes before running into highly inflated slot costs. And each of those 7 planes will produce much more revenue.

Make slots be plane-size specific when purchased, and not transferrable, and it'd work far, far better. That way, the 'bought too many slots in last month' amount could be weighted differently for each size, say small = 0.5, medium = 1, large = 2.5, v.large = 5. Go over 200 points in the last month, and you're paying the anti slot-hog fee. Allow a bank for those who are not buying slots, that credits them with 50 slots/week multiplied by the % amount of slots in their HQ between 0600-2255, less 20. So in an 80+% full airport, e.g. LHR, CDG, AMS, etc, you get no credit. In a 50% full airport, you'll get 15 slots/week added to your bank, enabling you to schedule in bulk later. In a near empty, 20% full airport, you'll get 30 slots/week banked, so if you go 3 months without a slot purchase, you'll have ~600 slots available before hitting the hog-fee, enough for 15-20 turboprops.

That would slow down explosive growth, without unduly punishing those running regional airlines, without unduly punishing those in bigger HQs without so much slot pressure who want to schedule in bulk on a weekend.

It would also stop players abusing the current system by getting a handful of LH planes as cash cows, then any 50-100 seater they can find to hold as many slots as possible for later switching to LH. You want to hold a slot for a v.large LH plane, you'll need to buy it as a v.large slot from the start. Or buy it as a medium slot for a medium plane, then close the route and rebuy it as a v.large later on. Easy to slow that hogging down too though, if you give back a slot of one size and want to buy it again, you could have to pay a really large fee.

Players attempting to run huge airlines in huge airports might actually have to start focusing on actually buying slots for the routes they're about to fly, instead of focusing on greediliy grabbing as much of the limited resource as they possibly can, in order to keep anyone else from having it, and to distribute to their real routes at leisure.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:15:19 PM by Sanabas »

Offline lunchbox

  • Members
  • Posts: 459
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2013, 05:05:23 PM »
I haven't been on in a long time, but I like to follow all of the new happenings.  I have to say Sanabas, that is the most brilliant idea I have heard of yet to solve this mess of a slot problem.  I hope to rejoin a game world soon, maybe when this slot mess gets cleaned up once and for all 8).

Offline Maarten Otto

  • Members
  • Posts: 1276
    • My photo site
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2013, 05:54:28 PM »
I haven't been on in a long time, but I like to follow all of the new happenings.  I have to say Sanabas, that is the most brilliant idea I have heard of yet to solve this mess of a slot problem.  I hope to rejoin a game world soon, maybe when this slot mess gets cleaned up once and for all 8).
There will be enough space for you to join MT soon if Sami doesn't reverse today's events I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 06:26:57 PM by Maarten Otto »

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2013, 07:16:27 PM »
This game was hard for small planes already, but it was never doable out of an airport where you directly compete with medium-sized aircraft for the same routes.
There will stay other places (not slot-locked)to HQ  and if you refrain from scheduling too many new routes at once, prices stay in regions they have been before, so no reason for lamento here.
The logic of your planes needing more slots than a medium airliner was always there and true, so Sami didinīt change the nature of math here.

Offline Maarten Otto

  • Members
  • Posts: 1276
    • My photo site
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2013, 08:15:59 PM »
Yes he did.

I do NOT want this system to NOT be implemented. I support what Sami does to prevent excessive growth. What I do not like however is the introduction of such a system in an ongoing game world where I pay money to play and haven't been told before spending my money.

And perhaps running a small airline from Glasgow WITH competition does make it more interesting for me... More challenging. I accept that it will be harder from a Cat5 airport, but a massive change we saw earlier today in an ongoing game is just absurd.

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 08:54:15 PM »
OK, I agree on that.Implementation was a bit hasty, seems like he accidently looked deeper into some slot hogging activity and decided to stop that at once without evaluating all proposes he asked for in his "final slot problem clearing" - thread he had started just shortly before. Heīs in a quite active phase right now, never saw so many changes and bug clearings in such a short time before.
There are positive and negative sides to this......

Offline Maarten Otto

  • Members
  • Posts: 1276
    • My photo site
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 09:54:33 PM »
I agree, and I am happy that Sami has lifted this thing from this game world and will test it in a BETA environment. That is the way forward and I am glad Sami listened to the majority of the community.

After all... He is human and allowed to make some mistakes (unless I happen to board his plane)  ;D

Offline Kadachiman

  • Members
  • Posts: 914
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 10:31:37 PM »
Seems to be just another version of the same old complaint.
Waaaaa I want slots but everyone else is getting them as I am not a 24/7 player
waaaaa now I could get them i cant afford them
Surely those 2 reoccurring complaints sound familiar to you all...lol


1. It is a very long game world so there is no need to be at 100+ airframes within your 1st year
so if you are aiming for this and end up going B/K don't blame the game mechanics, look closer to home for the blame

2. I don't like game changes mid-game either, but surely we also don't want a game where we have the blueprint to get from day 1 to day 10,000 before we even start?
Now that would make for a very boring game

Real life throws in changes 'mid-game'
911 was the classic example of this, how many companies had to park up planes due to drop in demand?
Pilot strike in Australia was another example
Iraq war?
probably many more

Bottom line...it is a live strategy game...so therefore you need to plan and at times re-plan when thrown curve balls

If you want to play a game that can be planned from beginning to end with no surprises or changes to your game plan then go play Snakes & Ladders....except take the snakes away as it seems no-one likes to have a setback...but I am sure you will all leave the ladders in-place as you all like the unexpected 'boost' in the game
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 10:35:52 PM by Kadachiman »

Online JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5992
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2013, 11:02:45 PM »
Agreed, changes mid game are inevitable.  I sure don't want to wait 6 months for the next update / bug fix.  And it is far easier from maintenance perspective to have only one code base for all game worlds.

But in the future, a change that may have significant impact on economics of running an airline should be pre-announced.


Offline Kadachiman

  • Members
  • Posts: 914
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2013, 11:20:54 PM »
But in the future, a change that may have significant impact on economics of running an airline should be pre-announced

I tend to agree with this statement as it is not a good feeling to see your hard work and time go to waste due to a sudden game change e.g. planes in process of being delivered and now cant afford to schedule them due to the change


Offline Sanabas

  • Members
  • Posts: 2161
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 12:20:23 AM »
This game was hard for small planes already, but it was never doable out of an airport where you directly compete with medium-sized aircraft for the same routes.

I have very recently finished an experiment with 19 seaters in a size 4 airport. I am very sure that if I had direct competition with another airline running medium sized planes, I would have prospered, and they would have made less money than me anywhere we competed. If I also grabbed a 100+ seat fleet for the bigger/longer routes that 19 seaters weren't suitable for, I'm certain I'd have wound up as the dominant airline in my airport. The problem in really big airports is that you need a lot of slots, far more than a larger airline does to use the same number of planes, and they get very expensive, while your revenue remains very low.

Quote
There will stay other places (not slot-locked)to HQ  and if you refrain from scheduling too many new routes at once, prices stay in regions they have been before, so no reason for lamento here.
The logic of your planes needing more slots than a medium airliner was always there and true, so Sami didinīt change the nature of math here.

Yes, Sami did. Needing more slots was true before, slots getting more expensive as a result was true before, no worries there. But if  penalties for acquiring slots too fast are to be applied in the slightly smaller airports that are perfect for small planes, those airlines will be disproportionately penalised by it, because scheduling 3 19 seaters means buying 120+ HQ slots. Scheduling a dozen v.large planes takes half that. A LH airline operating normally, scheduling planes as they arrive, will not trigger the slot-hogging penalty. A 19 seater airline, operating normally, will. It'll be even worse if their airline is low-maintenance, being looked at every few RL days, which is what mine was. It was boring, I let new plane orders arrive and sit there, until I got a burst of inspiration and scheduled them. I was buying 500+ slots over the course of an in-game week, because that's what 3-4 months of normal operation would have needed, and I was only paying attention once every 3-4 game months. There was no slot hogging, my airports had zero slot pressure (apart from the 05xx, 06xx hours), and those slots were for routes I'd fly from then until the end of my airline, not to hold the slot and make a bit of money until a bigger plane arrived. If the slot-hogging penalties can't differentiate between slot-hogging and normal operation of small planes in smaller airports with ample slots, then it's not going to work.

brique

  • Former member
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 12:48:58 AM »
they wont be applied to anything like that extent in smaller airports : the big penalty applies to those +50% operators in major airports which suffer already from slot-locking issues.

As you hit a monopoly position in a smaller airport, prices will scale up, yes, but the pricing start point is already much lower than a major : frankly, adding 100% penalty to a slot set that costs 12k (which is the current max price for the highly prized 06.00 slot in my HQ) is not going to bankrupt me, it still would not even reach the price of a c-check on an 19-seater.

Bigger airports than mine will have higher prices, yep.. but then, they will also have more demand, available routes and so on to earn the revenue to pay for them.

I do agree that doing scheduling in big batches becomes an expensive business under this change and yes, that will hit small-plane operators far more than big ones due to the need for more flights, therefore more slots, per day, so yep, it will require a change in game-play to ease the pain. But that's due to the dynamic pricing element of the changes, not the monopoly penalty. I think a considered approach to Sami asking if some element to differentiate in effect between small operators and larger ones might be a possible solution to that.

but, looking at it from another view : I do monopolise many slot time bands at my little airport, it does prevent incoming flights using those time-bands : if a competitor moved in, they would be disadvantaged in scheduling terms : so, really, should I complain if the cost of doing that is a little higher than before?

rickyricky101

  • Former member
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 07:25:51 PM »
A slot a slot......my kingdom for a slot!!!

Online JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5992
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2013, 07:34:49 PM »
A slot a slot......my kingdom for a slot!!!

 :)

Offline ArcherII

  • Members
  • Posts: 1935
Re: No slots today, no slots tomorrow, very limited slots EVER
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2013, 07:43:01 PM »
A slot a slot......my kingdom for a slot!!!

LOLOLOL

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.