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Author Topic: Slots - the final solution  (Read 4432 times)

FORSBERC

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2013, 06:54:42 AM »
Simplifying the slot system should definitely be considered, however, I certainly believe that the terminals do not need to be all that simplistic. I think they would add whole new level to the game and would help cap the large airlines by having them spend more money in order to expand. Unlike now, where the only true capital expense for expansion is additional bases and aircraft.

For new terminals, we could have an architecture bidding process, where you input your required TI (Terminal Image which would directly affect the CI and RI for routes flying to/ from the terminal), quantity/ size of gates, and other facilities you require. After say a month, the bid comes back and says that it will cost you $100 million, you will have 15 gates, and that the TI is expected to be between 70 and 80. From this, you can choose whether to modify your terminal, or build proposed design.

In addition, because the terminals would be a large capital expense, the decision to reconfigure the terminal must be present. This would go hand in hand with aircraft seat configurations as I have mentioned earlier, allowing the user to customize the asset to their content and specifications.

Furthermore, we could have a "terminal" marketplace where users could buy used portions of (or whole) terminals. This would allow airlines the ability to make revenue in additional ways and provide a player driven ability to directly open slots up to other operators at specific airports.

NOTE: By making the new modifier Terminal Image (TI), it could directly affect the RI and CI of the airline. The RI would never go to 100 without a TI of above 75, thus making nice terminals necessary for the best loads, but certainly not required.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2013, 08:48:42 AM »
Furthermore, we could have a "terminal" marketplace where users could buy used portions of (or whole) terminals. This would allow airlines the ability to make revenue in additional ways and provide a player driven ability to directly open slots up to other operators at specific airports.

Used terminals. That just gave me a thought:

What happens when an airline that built their own terminal goes bankrupt? Do those gates sit empty until another airline buys the terminal? And who does the new owner buy it from? The airport? Do all those gates become common-use?

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2013, 09:21:17 AM »
Used terminals. That just gave me a thought:

What happens when an airline that built their own terminal goes bankrupt? Do those gates sit empty until another airline buys the terminal? And who does the new owner buy it from? The airport? Do all those gates become common-use?

my thoughts :

In that case : the empty terminal stays so until a new player moves in (as it would be their 'free' start-up HQ) : I assume any upgrades made by the previous owner would lapse and the terminal revert to basic level : Additionally, the airport could offer the terminal to existing based players, who might see it as a quick upgrade, then their old terminal would fall empty (and its capacity) and that become the start-up terminal awaiting a new player basing there.

There is the issue of how do players HQ-ed elsewhere go about opening a new base at an airport: this could be part of the process, taking over a BK-ed players terminal (with any upgrades reflected in the price) or just being allocated a vanilla start-up one they would have to prettify themselves.

There is the issue of just how many player-owned terminals an airport could realistically have : again, back to the overall capacity limiter of runway slots (less the reserved % for the common-use terminal) and the limitation is the total number of gates (and associated runway slots) : no more capacity = no more new terminals or gate upgrades : this should then 'push' the airport management into expansion mode : in which case, it could calculate how much demand exists, is it being filled, can its tenant airlines attract more pax (under dynamic demand) and will its tenants part-fund any expansion : it could happen the airport demands that tenants upgrade the 'comforts' side of their operations to attract more demand first : perhaps a metric governing the overall Airport Image is at work too?

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2013, 01:52:04 PM »
Used terminals. That just gave me a thought:

What happens when an airline that built their own terminal goes bankrupt? Do those gates sit empty until another airline buys the terminal? And who does the new owner buy it from? The airport? Do all those gates become common-use?

You could just flip the old terminal to the common terminal and more airlines based at other airports can fly into the airport.  New players start from scratch, but the old terminal adds to the usage of runway slots.  So if you're at ATL with 5 competitors and all 5 bankrupt, the common terminal will be expanded greatly (depending on how big those airlines got before going BK).  This makes sense because it is only the airports where players can reach the point of massive terminals like this that the most competition is needed.  The largest airline at LHR has 500 aircraft in DOTM, for example.  It is going to take the non-LHR airlines probably 1000-1500 aircraft to give him any competition worth dealing with.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2013, 01:53:24 PM »
Also, I must add that even if there is a huge slot pool avail for non-based airlines, they are still restricted by their own terminal space at their own airport, so it's not like there would be a flood of airlines flying into the airport overnight.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2013, 02:58:54 PM »
Also, I must add that even if there is a huge slot pool avail for non-based airlines, they are still restricted by their own terminal space at their own airport, so it's not like there would be a flood of airlines flying into the airport overnight.

good point, mustn't forget there are two ends to the route : but given the (current) LHR/NRT/AMS/etc demand, its fair to say folk will use their precious slots to try to fly there and not to Ulanbator : which may not be so bad, as it would leave uncontested routes to other airports and thus give an option for those who dont join the stampede.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2013, 08:40:26 PM »
I just got an oversupply warning (had to block more seats).  I just realized terminals would eliminate the need for the oversupply/monopoly issues as it is there predominately to keep players from slot hogging.  If we have terminals and they want to use excess slots to overserve a route, I say let them...

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2013, 09:15:16 PM »
I just got an oversupply warning (had to block more seats).  I just realized terminals would eliminate the need for the oversupply/monopoly issues as it is there predominately to keep players from slot hogging.  If we have terminals and they want to use excess slots to overserve a route, I say let them...

It does change things on that ground, yeah : a beta test game-world would no doubt bring up other in-game rules that no longer work as intended or are needed : also was thinking, it would change the thinking behind A-B-C routing too : if that was then allowed but only between your own terminals as start and finish points : perhaps?

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2013, 07:56:35 AM »
Elements

Two elements are needed: runway capacity and terminal capacity.

Runway capacity will be calculated based on the current system, but added with the airport expansions where airport authority can elect to build new runways and expand the airport's runway capacity when it becomes limiting.

As far as transitioning from current airports, it may not be clear if the airport is runway capacity limited or terminal limited.   In order not to be stuck where we are now, it may be a good idea to assume that airports have greater runway capacity than the current system indicate and they are terminal / gate limited.

There's a separate thread of this too with basic details here: http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,21347.msg268408.html#msg268408  (the idea's details may have to be changed a bit for this but basic idea remains: airport can expand its runways every X years and thus grow larger => more capacity).

Let's just hope that airport expansion of runways will add so much capacity that most airports will be limited by terminals / gates (that while costly to enlarge, they will be under player control.

Terminal capacity will have many elements and possibilities and it is also dynamic, but faster than runway dynamics. Basic idea starts with each airport having a single terminal operated by the airport authority - this is the same like today. So for any small airport with very little traffic nothing changes. But we will introduce a possibility where players can open new terminals for their exclusive use, and possibly also rent this terminal space to other players (or alliances; details to be defined).

I think the transition to new terminal will be challenging.  What might work is that the player will have to start with the smallest terminal, with incremental upgrades with ability switch flights from common to private terminal.  This way, the space at the common terminal will free up gradually.  And, if the players happened to grab 100% of, say 0500-0700 slots, that his new, small terminal cannot accommodate, the player would not have to stop flying.

Anyway, the idea is for the player to have access to 2 "sources" of slots all the time, and enough incentive financial (cost) and CI/RI/TI (Terminal Image, for lack of a better word) incentive to use his own terminal.  So perhaps, using common terminal would give the flight TI of zero, using his own terminal would give him TI based on the size / quality of his terminal.

Terminal will have a defined max capacity per hour like runway slots. Terminals can be expanded by player input (money), and the airport authority would also expand their own terminal if needed.

Hopefully, that expansion would be slow, such as runway expansion.  Since every time player moves out, there is more capacity left at the main terminal.

unless they wish to make a contract of using player's terminal (similar to fuel contracts etc; just have to make easier interface tied to route opening screen).

Might be better left for future versions.

What each airline does inside his own terminal would be then his own matter; longhaul, shorthaul, whatever. However we could allocate the 'gates' (parking spaces) at the terminal also according to the 4 plane size classes so that you'd have different available capacities per plane type. For example total capacity of 10/hour could mean 2x very large or 10x small (just examples).

I think this - dealing with sizes of gates, as far as plane sizes they can accept might be even a bigger change than the building terminals, since, in theory, it should apply to the common terminal as well.  It might be best left out of initial version, and just stick to slot is a slot, gate is a gate.  This might be something that would have to be left for future, after the main mechanics are worked out, and apply only to new game worlds.

Staff numbers would also change; you wouldn't need handling staff for example anymore if you buy terminal services from airport authority or other airline, but staff would grow when your terminal grows etc.

But the economics / improved image should favor own terminal - at great deal of capital expense to build it.

Capacity usage % of slots and terminals would also affect to flight delays. Terminals could operate up to ~120% of their design capacity but delays would grow much when >95% capacity is exceeded. (this is advanced part, not necessary)

I think the delay system could use a re-write, so that it actually simulates aircraft flying, challenges it is facing, and cumulative delays / ability to catch up.  Best to handle that separately.

Slot costs would be radically reduced as your main costs would go into operating the terminal. There would be no slot limits per airline (apart from the hourly limits etc) but the limiting factor should be the size on your terminal. I would also presume the overall runway slot numbers would need to be increased.

Yes, probably a good idea.

Bases

We could also eliminate the base 100 plane restrictions, since it's limited by terminal capacity now (and past certain size you'd need the terminal, or you can build it right away too). And this feature would also make this "number of aircraft based an airport" feature work: http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,25319.0.html   ..which is basically the same thing what is talked here.

Sounds like a good idea.

Update

This all in all is a massive update and could not be implemented to v.1.3 most likely which is bad since we got 13 months of games left there etc. Eta for building/testing 3-6 months+.

I would foresee is something minimalistic, simple to get off the ground, with testing being done by creating a copy of existing, running game world.  Testers would start (continue their existing game) without a terminal, using one common terminal, with an option for the player to build his own terminal.  Otherwise, the test would just take too long.

As far as implementation, I would foresee something minimalistic: One slot screen per terminal as opposed to one slot screen per airport.  Player with a terminal would be able to switch between the 2 screens to view the slots at each terminal.

Route screen would have an option enabled for a player with a terminal (disable for player without a terminal), allowing him switch the flight back and forth (with edit, setting a check box, save).  Plus, overall runway capacity limit would be enforced.  That's pretty much it, apart from working out the staffing, costs, and some boost to potential LF by the Terminal Image.  So everything works exactly the same for the player without the terminal, only changes when the player decides to build a terminal.

One potential change might be that when a player builds a terminal, the capacity of the common terminal might need to shrink, by some 50% of the size of the new terminal, and same for each expansion of the player terminals.  We would not want to have 80 evening slots at LAX common terminal, with each airline there being able to add maybe 40-60 of his private slots and we end up with 300 evening slots at LAX, all flying red-eyes...  This way, there would be some check on the overall capacity of the airport.  So if 2 players add 45 each, for 90 total between them, the common terminal would shrink by 45 from 80 to 35 slots.

When the test game world is started (copied), players all without the terminal would first check if all the mechanics work pretty much the same as their existing live game world.  Once that is verified, the option to build terminals would be enabled, and the players would have at it.  The advantage of using a copy of existing game world is that it will have a number of large, established airlines, without players having to start from scratch, go for weeks before they are large enough to be able to test the feature.

Maybe more than 1 cycle of this test might be needed, starting with a fresh copy of a game world and re-verifying no changes to non-terminal play.  Then when testing is done, all game running game worlds would get the new code base (since it was verified and re-verified it does not make any changes to player without a terminal) and then the terminal option would be enabled in all game worlds.

Online Sami

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2013, 05:40:21 PM »
I'd be happy if someone can dig up some terminal building costs from news etc.. To get a rough idea how much it costs to set up your own shop.. (And other similar reference links)

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2013, 07:45:11 PM »
I'd be happy if someone can dig up some terminal building costs from news etc.. To get a rough idea how much it costs to set up your own shop.. (And other similar reference links)

I will do some research tomorrow. Recent terminal's that have been built that I know of include KCLE Concourse D, which is a commuter terminal with 12 jet bridges and 24 prop stands, cost CLE $80m in 1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Hopkins). The KDAL terminal under construction will cost $519m and includes 20 new gates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Love_Field).

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2013, 11:49:44 PM »
I'd be happy if someone can dig up some terminal building costs from news etc.. To get a rough idea how much it costs to set up your own shop.. (And other similar reference links)

This is probably on the expensive end of things since it is a crowded airport, cost overruns (which seem to be standard), and the fact all the gates were built for large aircraft like the A380/B777/B747 etc.

Atlanta's new international terminal with 12 new gates (plus customs, etc):

Terminal and concourse structures, people mover tunnels to connect to rest of airport: $817,227,958
Expansion of Concourse E central expansion for heating/cooling for international terminal: $5,049,056
People mover system expansion:  $65,510,514
Pavement surrounding Concourse F and aircraft fueling system at gates: $103,339,936
Underground utilities and fill to prepare site and bring to airport elevation: $100,039,308
Terminal roadways/Maynard H. Jackson Boulevard: $102,753,501
Commercial vehicle hold lot: $8,855,581
Hourly parking structure: $32,089,558
Interstate signs: $11,798,592
Relocation of groundwater monitoring wells to enable roadway construction: $925,505
Georgia Power substation relocation: $32,485,180
Relocation of airfield site utilities and other infrastructure surround the international terminal site: $47,901,274
Relocation of the US Post Office, demolition of old cargo facilities, replace Delta parking area taken for roadway construction: $60,536,823
Total: $1,388,512,785.
Management reserve: $25,000,000
Total costs: $1,413,512,785

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/the-new-international-terminal-what-cost-so-much/nQTq3/

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #72 on: October 15, 2013, 11:59:57 PM »
I'd be happy if someone can dig up some terminal building costs from news etc.. To get a rough idea how much it costs to set up your own shop.. (And other similar reference links)

On the low end, Duluth, MN had the most pathetic airport I've ever been in--I've seen bus stops more complicated.  They recently (2013) built a new terminal in Duluth at a cost of $78 million, and it was a really cheap/easy place to put a new terminal relative to bigger cities.  I believe they only have 4 gates with seating for 400, so that comes out to ~$20 million per gate compared to Atlanta's ~$115 million per gate.

http://www.duluthairport.com/news-expansion-landing.php

Offline Infinity

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2013, 08:55:09 PM »
While I like some - or for that matter, most - of the more elaborate proposals in this thread, I think that the most important thing is getting to the core of it:
Change the game in such a way that makes it irrelevant WHEN I spend my time with it. The way it is now, it's the largest lowlife winning. I always deemed myself in a pretty good position to win in that system, having the privilege of having a computer nearby most of the day and being able to pause work whenever I please. Well, I have been proven wrong. Even with those generous prereqs, I am currently learning, you can lose to someone who really subordinates his entire life to the game. It becomes comical when just that same person PMs you, accusing you of being a borg that's online 24/7, but that's another story.

Please excuse that little personal rant. Now to get down to the core of my post.

We need a system that gives equal chances to everyone, wether he spends his daily playtime in one sitting in the evening or in many small increments throughout the day.
This is more important than anything else. We need this change and we need it fast, well as fast as it can be done: ready for the next game world. I personally won't play another one with the current system. It's just degrading.

So, with all those great proposals here, I would like to appeal to sami to consider truthfully what's in his power to achieve until the next game starts and not get lost in the - as I can't emphasize enough, mostly great - proposals in here.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2013, 09:38:13 PM »
Looking through wiki for some data on terminal costs, etc : which is so complex it hurts the brain : partly cos some are new build on virgin soil, others are rebuilds, some extensions, some involve complete relocations of whole chunks of airport infrastructure, such as control towers.. in the end the actual cost of the building is lost in the overall cost figure announced.. which may not be accurate anyway.

far as I can tell, your bog standard terminal/or terminal exansion seems to come in at around $20-25mil per gate : your all-singing all A380-dancing Dreamliner-capable state-of-the-art uberterminal comes in at the $4bil+ mark. Frankly, where everything sits in the middle is anyone's guess.

there was one useful illustration found : its wiki commons so no copyright :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Terminal-Configurations.png

maybe that provides a template that can be worked up to give a decent spread of terminal types/capacities, with the 'cost' calculated more for the benefit of game-play than as a totally accurate reflection of real world figures?

Online Sami

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2013, 09:55:48 PM »
yes, just looking for some ballpark figures to base it on eventually.

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2013, 10:09:14 PM »
yes, just looking for some ballpark figures to base it on eventually.

IMO, a good way around the complexity of the cost of a terminal is to increase the base cost with each new terminal built. Trying to figure out what airports are land locked, which are in areas with high land values, etc would be way too much work...

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2013, 08:59:40 PM »
Looks like the temporary solution of just adding more slots (seems like back to MT5-MT6 level, reversing the reduction of MT7-MT8) is already helping quite a lot.  It seems that less than handful of airports are out of slots (unlike tens of airports that were out of slots prior to the increase).

IMO, there is no need for any restriction / caps / regulation.  All that is needed is for the slot counts at the airports being able to serve the demand of the airport.  LHR is still way out of line in this regard and maybe a couple of more airports ...

Offline JJP

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2015, 08:59:37 PM »
I am very intrigued by this and am curious if this is still on the "to do" list.

Thanks!

Online tise1983

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Re: Slots - the final solution
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2015, 02:49:30 AM »
I am new to the game, but I am amazed at how the slots do not increase exponentially...Meaning For every new slot you buy at say ZBAA the slot cost does not go way up, say the first slot costs 200K, the next one 300K, the next one 450K, the next one 625K...or something...I keep thinking in GW#$ we have it bad at ZBAA and then I look at Heath-row, and ZBAA looks promising!

You could also put a limiter on the number of slots you can buy...Say at heavy traffic airports you cannot buy more then 10% of the slots in a given hour or Half-hour, that would allow larger airports to be Hubs instead of HQ's...And say at smaller Airports players could purchase 75-80% of the Slots, and these would be HQ airports...

Like Little Rock could be an HQ and Atlanta would be a hub...And you could vary this by the current sizes of airports we have now...Like a level 5 Airports 20% slot per player per half-hour, Level 4 airport - 40% slots per player per half-hour, Level 3 Airport 75% slots per player per half-hour, and Level 2&1 90-100% slots available to whoever wants it.

But really this wouldst work either...I have just thought to myself maybe a terminal system may work, and I was trying to make an argument against it...BLAH

 

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