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Author Topic: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft  (Read 4098 times)

Offline schro

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2013, 05:24:41 AM »
Ah, that might be part of the issue with the used market.  If you click on the aircraft through the used market when it displays the checks out of date there is no link going to the My Aircraft page and instead of getting the two options, you only get the option to go to the sell screen.

used link:         http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/Used/View/129193/
my aircraft link: http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/My/View/129193/

If there was options to perform maintenance on the used link, it would make it MUCH easier to keep listed aircraft up to date.

Seems like a bug report worthy of filing?

Offline 11Air

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2013, 08:40:05 AM »
Lemon Butt had a good idea, see -Storage Fee for idle aircraft
Reply #52 - .
he suggests that aircraft on the register should have their C or D Check time frozen. i.e. not decreasing.
The issue of Brokers buying big numbers of aircraft known to be historically sound can soon be addressed by mixing the names between a/c types. I've already seem hypothetical or planned but not financed types on the market. Chucka few of those in, the ones that the 737's beat to the draw but never got into full production. There was nothing wrong with the VC10, the TriStar and so on apart from Government meddling and the revised Comet was a lovely aircraft that never made the numbers to get the cost reductions of numbers, though the built in engines do increase maintenance costs, but also reduce drag = fuel burn.

Offline Sami

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Offline spiff23

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2013, 03:39:25 PM »
Sami, these seem like positive change to keep a healthy used market.  

Can you clarify two things in your link that has me slight concerned.  My assumption is when you say, that you have two weeks to perform the C or D check or plane will be removed...

1). Is that two real world weeks?

2) Does removed = scrapped in which case you get the scrapped amount in your bank account?
Or does removed = plane is returned to your fleet where it is then your choice to perform the maintenance or incur a storage fee if you choose no action given you would be not allowed to re-list without the maintenance?

Main reason I ask 2 is it seems like auto C = no problem! whereas D may = time to scrap.  There's only a c/d option for used...but if plane goes back to your fleet then situation solves itself through you active fleet maintenance options.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 03:57:48 PM by spiff23 »

Offline Sami

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2013, 04:22:49 PM »
Game time, and removed = returned to your fleet, of course.

Offline Andre

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2013, 04:51:25 PM »
Awesome new features.. very happy about them. :)

brique

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2013, 05:14:15 PM »
Awesome new features.. very happy about them. :)

I'm less so : as a whole, the newly announced package of measures will do little to address the the needs of less cash-rich smaller operators, indeed, they add more burdens so, in logic, the smart option is avoid the market altogether : serial-lease your planes or buy and fly them up to their 2nd d-check then scrap them immediately: putting any small aircraft onto the market is wasting cash now : you cant not mx them or they get removed : on small aircraft those c/d check costs are disproportionately high percentage of the aircraft value, so it makes no sense at all to risk several years of storage fees and mx costs, along with a massive price drop, to tempt the brokers or other players into buying it. take the scrap value and run away...fast.

Offline Dasha

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2013, 05:21:44 PM »
But you can now lease aircraft rather having to buy them, because the airlines are obliged to pay for the checks. Or keep them in their own fleet where they'll cost money.

I think it's a good thing.
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brique

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2013, 05:35:05 PM »
But you can now lease aircraft rather having to buy them, because the airlines are obliged to pay for the checks. Or keep them in their own fleet where they'll cost money.

I think it's a good thing.

And why will player-brokers even consider holding any stock other than highly popular types now? Only the ones with a big enough margin to cover parking fees and mandated mx whilst awaiting a buyer/leaser : To lease aircraft, they do have to be there : none of mine will be in future : player-broker margins in the small aircraft sector were tight enough already : now the risk of loss has tipped over the line and made it a nonsensical option to take. You know how hard it is to keep lines for even popular small aircraft open : in the Little Bird Alliance we both spent lots of time and effort doing so : at least when the AI brokers were more active there was a 'second-life' for small planes : recently, in JA I had ex-fleet planes fresh d-checked at 30-35% value sit for over a year and no broker went near them : add on parking fees and why bother in the future? As I said, return/scrap them soon as you can and back to the initial point, where are these easier to lease planes going to come from?

Offline Sami

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2013, 05:43:16 PM »
putting any small aircraft onto the market is wasting cash now

So ~$2000-$2500/month for a small (class 2) aircraft is a waste that messes the whole system..? eh?

Offline spiff23

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2013, 05:48:14 PM »
Game time, and removed = returned to your fleet, of course.

Thanks. Seems sensible.  I like the changes.

brique

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2013, 06:03:02 PM »
So ~$2000-$2500/month for a small (class 2) aircraft is a waste that messes the whole system..? eh?

Its relative, Sami : margins on small aircraft are slim enough : mx costs, relatively, are much higher : Unless you get a 'clean' uninterrupted lease on a small plane, down time adds up in terms of lost potential revenue : add parking fees and the actual time then required on lease-out to get to break-even gets increased further : but with that longer period comes added mx : my experience, you cant put a small plane with less than 2yrs to D-check or 3months to c-check on the market and hope for a sale ; so 'early' c/d checks become the norm, to try and keep it 'desirable' and thus get a longer-term lease from it : I'll be happy to be proved wrong, that this will not impact on small operators flying small planes ; just that I'm not going to be the one trying to prove that as my gut-instinct is that it will impact badly, in the longer term, and will undo all the good work done to make small aircraft workable in AWS. Part of the 'small plane' economics is having a second life for your ex-fleet planes in the market : either selling or leasing them out : lose that and re-fleeting becomes much longer term affair, needing you to maximise the 'operational' flying life of the aircraft, which rarely fits in with production line cycles : if, indeed, there will be a comparable type aircraft still around in production when you can economically re-fleet.
So, I do feel that now, looking to dispose of your ex-fleet small aircraft on the market will be a risky affair with potential long term costs disproportionate to its value : you may get lucky and move it one quickly, but, realistically, it makes more sense to cut your losses early and scrap it soon as you can : and there you go, fewer planes on the market, job done.

Offline Sami

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2013, 06:11:06 PM »
mx costs, relatively, are much higher

Not in my mind. D check for each plane is about 3-5% of the list price.

For example; B717's D costs 4.1% of the list price while ATR72's is 3.5% (data from new a/c page). While for B738 it's 2.6% and for IL-96 6.4%, and for Beech 1900D 3.2% ..   (= D check cost / list price; new 100% condition plane, cheapest engine/variant)

..this of course varies a bit between each model.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 06:13:18 PM by sami »

BD

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2013, 07:12:44 PM »
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26356.msg286746.html#msg286746
Quote from: sami AWS v1.3 news posting
* [major?, to be implemented after 5 days] Storage fee for idle aircraft introduced.

     - All aircraft that are unscheduled (no routes) or for sale are subject to a parking/storage fee. This is calculated automatically daily, and only applies if you have more than 10 planes "idle" (= no routes or for sale) at the same time. Fee represents the costs of airport parking space for long-term parking of aircraft. Fee is not airport relative as we assume planes for long-term parking are not stored in LHR for example, but at some other local small airport.. Insurance costs etc. for these parked aircraft are still valid, this feature is not equal to "mothballing" a plane in the desert.

     - Fee is based on aircraft size class and scales according to inflation / game year (like all game costs). Fee will be under 'Ground handling' in income statement.

     - Example: For the largest size class plane a 24hr parking fee is $500/day (game year ~2005) and for smallest size class $50/day. (intially, these may be tuned later)
Would the 10 aircraft threshold vary based on size of aircraft? 

I ask because in JA8 as I transition aircraft I am carrying a buffer of props that I intend to redeploy as cash flow permits.  I don't think that is the intended target of this change, right?  :)

Also, will it be effective for the 11th (or threshold +1) aircraft and beyond, or does the charge apply to all aircraft of that model? (I presume it is by mode and not fleet type, right?)

If I understand it correctly, the magnitude of the impact is not overly burdensome, so probably won't change my behavior, so suggest this as a tweak (if not implemented this way) vs an issue with this change.


Quote from: sami AWS v1.3 news posting
- Settings / Aircraft settings has a new option to automatically perform C/D checks to all your planes listed for sale. (Note that the other two options for automatic checks only apply for planes not listed for sale; so if you check the 'Automatically perform C check maintenance' box it will C check all planes in operation but not those for sale. While the new option performs C/D only for planes for sale.)
As mentioned by another poster, IMHO, it would be better to have the automated option for C and D split, as our economic decision is likely different for D vs C.  The alternative is manual tracking of D dates to catch them before the automated D check occurs (and scheduling our RL time around the game).  :(




Offline Sami

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2013, 07:16:30 PM »
Would the 10 aircraft threshold vary based on size of aircraft?  

No, 10 total per airline. It's just to give some room to make small changes .. although not a big deal by any means, since this cost is very minimal if you do not have hundreds of idle planes. If you have 2 planes sitting idle for a game day or two when doing scheduling changes it will cost you <$1000...

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2013, 07:21:49 PM »
So ~$2000-$2500/month for a small (class 2) aircraft is a waste that messes the whole system..? eh?

The parking fee is small but part of a whole. Add to the parking fee the need to C/D check every plane in a players broker fleet on schedule and the desire to buy small or less desirable planes diminishes further meaning more and more airlines who like to play the resale market will flock to Boeing and Airbus putting further stress on those production lines.

I have calmed down a bit from my earlier posts, but the fact still remains that this fix does not address the real problems with the used market and if anything will make gaining access to the preferred aircraft lines more difficult than it was before.
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Offline LemonButt

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2013, 08:03:33 PM »
more and more airlines who like to play the resale market will flock to Boeing and Airbus putting further stress on those production lines.

+1

As I said in another post, buying anything but Airbus/Boeing/MD has turned futile.

Offline Dasha

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2013, 08:17:00 PM »
You know how hard it is to keep lines for even popular small aircraft open : in the Little Bird Alliance we both spent lots of time and effort doing so : at least when the AI brokers were more active there was a 'second-life' for small planes : recently, in JA I had ex-fleet planes fresh d-checked at 30-35% value sit for over a year and no broker went near them : add on parking fees and why bother in the future? As I said, return/scrap them soon as you can and back to the initial point, where are these easier to lease planes going to come from?

I already said that this needs to be looked into.

Player-brokers might buy or lease the airbuses and boeings and all and sell them or lease them out for players who need them immediately. For small birds freaks like us that is pointless but that's why we need the production lines open a bit longer or with a different systems.


Besides it's an airline sim... not a plane broker sim :)

« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 08:19:25 PM by Dasha »
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brique

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2013, 11:06:17 PM »
I already said that this needs to be looked into.

Player-brokers might buy or lease the airbuses and boeings and all and sell them or lease them out for players who need them immediately. For small birds freaks like us that is pointless but that's why we need the production lines open a bit longer or with a different systems.


Besides it's an airline sim... not a plane broker sim :)



Well, its not a plane broker sim now, for sure, unless you stick to the 'point and click' route to success, generate insane amounts of cash then find ways to throw it away to dodge the taxman, in which case, parking fees wont hurt much at all, neither will storage fees or being made to do a/b checks as well as the c/d checks on your never-flown assets : but if you prefer to walk the lesser path, its just got a bit less fun and a lot more hassle, IMO : flying little birds gets dull at times as you run out of routes and generating cash and aircraft to expand into bases takes time as well : playing as a broker alongside that fills those long gaps with activity and does generate a sort of critical mass for enabling big enough plane orders to stave off line closures : well, we shall see how this new system develops, but I have lost a fair degree of enthusiasm for trying to make small plane operations work now, certainly beyond the first 10-15yrs of a game world.

Offline 11Air

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Re: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2013, 10:46:54 PM »
Well done Sami, to do something. It's fixed the big problem but I am sure you will be watching the knock on effects.

 

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