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Author Topic: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft  (Read 4093 times)

Offline Teadaze

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2013, 01:12:46 PM »
The reason every thread is against the mega airlines is because resources are finite and they have the cash to use the current systems to their advantage to the detriment of other players, whether it be buying up airport slots or production slots.  The reason it is an issue is because it is first come/first served, which is not the way it happens in real life but is the only way that makes sense in AWS.  It is just the nature of the game that players will try to grow as large as they can, which is perfectly fine, but there should be limits to growth or else you'll see an airline with 10,000 aircraft.  This is why you are limited to 4 bases and costs go up logarithmically as you add bases and fleet types.  This has worked successfully in keeping the large airlines in check, but there are still issues with slots and production lines.  You used to be able to buy slots with negative money, not it is cash only.  That didn't fully solve the problem, so now there is a new pricing algorithm and there was a lot of backlash (rightfully so since it was implemented in a running game without any lead time), and now we are going to a terminal system (it sounds like at least) and the city-based demand is going to be implemented to help solve the slot issue to spread the love across all airports in a city.  It is easy to see why production slots takes a back seat to airport slots, but there is still work to be done on the production slot side as well.

this is exactly the problem about the system, you are limited to 4 base, you are sitting on boatload of cash, you are getting cash raped by tax as time goes on, WTF do you do? wait and see how high can you see your wallet grow(just like CV), bankrupt early because there is no new route to open for the next 10 years?(current problem in end game) or invest and try and get someone to lease it and see how high CV can you go.

There are often failed investment(I have taken hit from this JA trying to lease out comet and fokker early game). those plane you listed for 5 years, he lost money on interest when purchase, nobody lease/buy them so he is not getting a single dime on it. The major inflation happen at the beginning of the game where everyone need to grab as much aircraft as possible. He also lost the oppertunity of using those cash to place them on other more 'popular aircraft'. Right now the market inflation has been stalling(at least for the past 5 years). What is there for him to gain?
And btw.. I doubt many people is going 727 right now, unless they are new start up or abuse the lease system to return d check aircraft.

you know... that new pricing algorithm is still in game... people are just too stupid to notice it(but being toned down).

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 01:20:32 PM by Aoitsuki »

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2013, 02:28:28 PM »
I guess it depends if you want to end up with a game with 20 mega airlines only - sounds a bit boring to me, or a game dominated by several hundred small / medium sized airlines. Im not saying that mega airlines won't (and shouldn't) exist - they are an important part of the game, but I think the game development should be towards the bulk of the players - who don't operate mega airlines.

And Lemonbutt is right. If "this apparently never happens and large airlines aren't parking planes, why is there so much resistance to implementing a fee or some other system to discourage it".

Because the system you're advocating would screw over plenty of airlines not doing what you're trying to prevent unless other parts of the game are changed at the same time perhaps?

Right now with the exponentially scaling commonality penalty between 3 and 4 types a largish airline with 3 operating types who needs to replace one of those types MUST accumulate all the necessary frames before replacing a single one as going to 4 types can take them from very profitable to losing money.  This can conceivably mean that a ~400 frame airline might need ~200+ frames sitting idle before beginning replacement.  That's already a hugely unprofitable money sink that takes forever and is highly frustrating and now you want to charge money for parking those planes too?

Offline Infinity

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2013, 03:02:40 PM »
which is unrealistic.

So is the game.

I just proved this is exactly what is happening with a screenshot of 3 aircraft that are 5+ years old with 0 flight hours and you want to tell me this isn't happening and somehow what you stated is universally valid fact?  Give me a break.  Attached are even more examples on the current used market in DOTM that I must have photoshopped since it is universally valid fact that it never happens.

And again, you are trying to sell us the exception as the rule. Everyone who can read can see that all of your examples are from one single player and are only a cheap trick that has nothing to do with the general picture.

And Lemonbutt is right. If "this apparently never happens and large airlines aren't parking planes, why is there so much resistance to implementing a fee or some other system to discourage it".

Do you work for the EUSSR? Your logic would fit in there just fine.

And speaking of limited ressources... Samis ressources (i.e. time) are limited, so stop trying to waste it with such rubbish ideas that benefit exactly nobody.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 03:11:15 PM by saftfrucht »

brique

  • Former member
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2013, 04:01:14 PM »


And Lemonbutt is right. If "this apparently never happens and large airlines aren't parking planes, why is there so much resistance to implementing a fee or some other system to discourage it".

Well, I'm not a mega-airline, barely make it to short-side-of-medium most games : I'm worried about the idea of 'parking fees' for the simple reason that it will discourage me from also playing on the 'broker' side of the game : the economics of broking are pretty rubbish already but it does dodge the tax man (a noble act in itself) and, in the area I work in, small aircraft, being able to keep lines open with well-timed orders benefits all small-bird fliers. Even with a modest number of aircraft in the lease fleet, a few BK's and I can find myself with quite a number parked, waiting for new users : they are already costing me, for maints and such to keep them tip-top, and not earning while they wait : a leased plane needs a good 8yrs of earnings to pay back its costs and to make the deal worthwhile : that's marginal already : add more fees if you are unlucky enough to not be able to find a customer for them and its suicidal.

So, add parking fees and I'll stop broking and pay the taxman instead, it will probably be cheaper in the long term.

Offline Sami

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2013, 12:54:22 AM »
For the longevity of the game main issue here would be that the market is full of player-owned planes that have expired heavy checks. So they are of no use for new players which is my main concern.

It would be a bit wrong to force players to keep the checks up-to-date but some other elegant solution to encourage for it would be nice. Market broker declining to put the plane up for sale listings if there are already several similar ones with expired checks and this has them too? Or a bonus for paid by the broker if the checks are ok and plane is sold/leased? Or capping max allowed price for the plane with expired checks? ...or something.


For the topic, storage fee would be imposed as a "ramp fee" / "parking fee". Doesn't have to be relative to your base airport capacity as you can ferry them to the nearby ex-military airfield dump but they also charge you a bit to park the crap there until some unlucky guy buys it.. Overall, would be rather small and comparable to insurance fee.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2013, 02:01:39 AM »
It would be a bit wrong to force players to keep the checks up-to-date but some other elegant solution to encourage for it would be nice.

Why would this be wrong exactly?  The easy fix IMO is if a heavy check is out of date, the plane is automatically removed from the market and cannot be relisted until it is brought up to spec.  Like you said--who is going to lease these unchecked aircraft?  If a player is legitimately trying to lease an aircraft, it should be an non-issue.  Also, it is very likely that if an aircraft is leased it will be returned needing heavy checks, which is simply a cost of doing business so I don't see anything wrong with having the requirement of having heavy checks completed before listing.

In the extreme case in the screenshots I posted, the airline would not be parking a Concorde if he knew that he had to pay the huge C/D-check costs to ever list the aircraft in hopes of a player (or broker) actually buying it in the future.  It is too easy to price aircraft at +50%, let checks expire, and have the aircraft sit there for perpetuity.

Edit: and to add to it, an aircraft with expired heavy checks should be worth something like 10% of it's value so airlines buying up aircraft with no intention of ever leasing them out are better off getting taxed instead.  10% of the value should be enough to take out a secured loan and pay for the heavy checks if they are hurting for cash.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 02:08:58 AM by LemonButt »

Offline schro

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2013, 03:31:49 AM »
For the longevity of the game main issue here would be that the market is full of player-owned planes that have expired heavy checks. So they are of no use for new players which is my main concern.

It would be a bit wrong to force players to keep the checks up-to-date but some other elegant solution to encourage for it would be nice. Market broker declining to put the plane up for sale listings if there are already several similar ones with expired checks and this has them too? Or a bonus for paid by the broker if the checks are ok and plane is sold/leased? Or capping max allowed price for the plane with expired checks? ...or something.


For the topic, storage fee would be imposed as a "ramp fee" / "parking fee". Doesn't have to be relative to your base airport capacity as you can ferry them to the nearby ex-military airfield dump but they also charge you a bit to park the crap there until some unlucky guy buys it.. Overall, would be rather small and comparable to insurance fee.

So, if you're looking for an elegant solution, let's consider the following -

1. Add a filter to the used aircraft market to:
 a. Only show Broker, Only show player or Show All listed A/C
 b. Hide Aircraft with expired checks (or with checks expiring in the next 3 months as an option).
2. Implement the "storage" ability (I believe this is a longstanding feature request) for airlines to park planes without auto c/d checking them (this alone would eliminate the need for fleet transition frames to end up on the market).

Of course, on the already [-]'ed wish list:
1. Cycle/flight hour based MX - the C/D check clock isn't necessarily ticking as fast on parked planes

brique

  • Former member
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2013, 09:15:16 PM »
Slightly out of left-field, triggered by another request about more pre-delivery maint options on leased aircraft, but this slightly scary notion occurred to me as a counter to players leaving aircraft on the market with expired heavy mx to keep them off the auto-check system : simply: all aircraft leased/sold must be delivered at 100% condition, at the brokers expense.

well, its an idea....


Offline Infinity

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2013, 09:53:29 PM »
Definitely not. This would take the option from players to lease a lower condition aircraft at a lower price.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2013, 10:17:37 PM »
Definitely not. This would take the option from players to lease a lower condition aircraft at a lower price.

Yes, it would : but if a change is made to resolve the original issue, somebody, somewhere, is going to be inconvenienced : the question is really then who, and by how much : or we can just choose to leave things as they are and inconvenience the OP and those who agree with them.

Offline [ATA] frimp

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2013, 12:11:10 AM »
An issue I also find is that with the current mechanics of the game there is no incentive to scrap old planes. (especially in longer games)
It's better to put them on sale on the UM (with no intention of selling them) but keeping them for your company value.

as a result people don't use scrapping of the old planes when they really should, as it doesnt make financial sense to scrap them.

I see 2 solutions to this problem:

1. Force airlines to keep paying for C&D checks when planes are listed for sale - so that planes are kept in good condition, which will encourage users to lease/buy them. . (if pricing is reasonable - maybe game mechanics should force that planes from 14-15yrs of age can only be sold/leased at MV or lower) => I see this as easing pressure on production slots of new aircrafts. In addition airlines will have to think 2x about offloading these planes, as competitors could pick them up cheaply.
If maintenance is not performed then usual fines/CI drops should apply

2. (my preferred), when a plane is listed for sale, it's value gets deducted from the overall company value... only when the sale is made/realised should it get added back to your company value (as it will go to your cash). This would discourage users from holding onto older aircrafts and flooding the UM with aircrafts without maintenance and never intending to sell them.

maybe even both could be implemented to work together.

once terminals get implemented, then this should also solve the problem as long as aircrafts on sale are taking up spaces at the terminals!
I just want to repost this as I dont think anyone commented on it, either no1 thought it was a good idea or no1 bothered to read it. I personally think it would solve a lot of issues. Sami said that forcing checks may not be an option but I think the combination of my 2 proposed options could improve gameplay a lot.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2013, 01:47:59 PM »
Don't want to beat a dead horse here, but this is an even bigger problem than it was before in DOTM.  See attached for an even more extreme example of why there needs to be additional fees/rules for idle aircraft.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2013, 04:41:08 PM »
I have ~10 aircraft for sale in DOTM and I'm starting to see how broken things are with the mechanics of the used market.  I have recently D-checked aircraft that are listed under book value that have been for sale for several game months now and none of the brokers and swooped in to buy them up yet.

The only way to do maintenance on an aircraft is to take it off the market, perform the maintenance, and then relist which is a hassle.  It seems the easiest solution to ensure that aircraft on the used market remain checked is to freeze the clock for checks.  I assume the current system calculates the number of days since the last check occurred, so it would just be a matter of adding another variable to included the number of days it has been on the market to offset.  For example:

C check due every 365 days
Aircraft had a C-check 200 days ago, next C-check is due in 165 days
Aircraft is listed and the clock is frozen on checks--as long as it is listed the C-check will always be due in 165 days
If the aircraft is listed for 250 days, the days since last C-check is 450 days - 250 days = 200 days
The aircraft will have the last C-check listed as 450 days ago, but is only 200 days old

This would be as simple as adding 4 variables to the database (one for each A/B/C/D-check) and then adding the new variable to the "days since" calculation.  This would be more "realistic" since checks are based on cycle times versus calendar days and would keep the used market fresh.  The 4 variables would only be reset when the check is performed, so those 250 days of being on the market stay with the maintenance schedule until the maintenance is performed.

Offline Mr.HP

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2013, 05:04:19 PM »
What you suggested, will encourage people to play broker even more, and is opposite the idea of OP, to put more cost on brokers

Quote
The only way to do maintenance on an aircraft is to take it off the market, perform the maintenance, and then relist which is a hassle
The easiest way is to be able to do check w/o removing the A/C from the market, by enable a button when select a listed on UM A/C

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2013, 05:18:36 PM »
What you suggested, will encourage people to play broker even more, and is opposite the idea of OP, to put more cost on brokers
The easiest way is to be able to do check w/o removing the A/C from the market, by enable a button when select a listed on UM A/C

I disagree, but if you add a "storage fee" for aircraft on the market it will offset this.  IRL aircraft that are parked don't accumulate cycles and need to be checked.  If you can perform checks while the aircraft is listed, an airline could have to wait 13 weeks for a D-check to be completed.  I was going to buy the attached aircraft in DOTM, but decided against it once I realized I had to wait 13 weeks.  There are 2 of them listed and the last D-check was 10+ years ago.  Having aircraft like this listed helps no one.

Aston Airways in DOTM has ~200 aircraft listed for sale and it would be a full time job keeping them all up to date on maintenance checks, so as a result there are a lot of aircraft that need heavy checks that again, benefits no one.  Attached is also 3 BAC 1-11 that have zero flight hours, yet requires a D-check to have the entire thing gutted with seats replaced, new fuel tanks, etc.  Having these aircraft on the market with expired checks benefits no one.

Offline 11Air

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2013, 06:43:35 PM »
Well said LemonButt. Parking fees should apply for any complete hour beyond the Turn-around time. That included overnight stop overs when flying from Curfewed Airports. Maybe the rate should a some half or quarter of the Landing Fee for simplicity since parking will be cheaper at sheap airports. No-one wants to leave aircraft at Heathrow unless they are making good money. Heathrow has very little parking space anyway so I'm sure their long stop turn-arounds (blocked gate fees) are dear.

Offline schro

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2013, 04:56:14 AM »
The only way to do maintenance on an aircraft is to take it off the market, perform the maintenance, and then relist which is a hassle.

Incorrect. You can perform maint actions on a listed plane without removing it for sale from the market. When the maint is complete, it will return to the market automagically. You would be correct if you said that you cannot list a plane that is currently undergoing maint...

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2013, 05:05:10 AM »
Incorrect. You can perform maint actions on a listed plane without removing it for sale from the market. When the maint is complete, it will return to the market automagically. You would be correct if you said that you cannot list a plane that is currently undergoing maint...

How?  I just went in and double-checked and I can't find any option to perform maintenance on my currently listed aircraft...

Offline schro

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2013, 05:08:29 AM »
How?  I just went in and double-checked and I can't find any option to perform maintenance on my currently listed aircraft...
See attached

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2013, 05:20:30 AM »
Ah, that might be part of the issue with the used market.  If you click on the aircraft through the used market when it displays the checks out of date there is no link going to the My Aircraft page and instead of getting the two options, you only get the option to go to the sell screen.

used link:         http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/Used/View/129193/
my aircraft link: http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/My/View/129193/

If there was options to perform maintenance on the used link, it would make it MUCH easier to keep listed aircraft up to date.

 

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