AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft  (Read 4096 times)

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2013, 01:14:48 PM »
The exponential fleet commonality penalties can also play a large role in parked planes (but that's a different feature request with regards to fleet transition planning). In early MT8, I was running A320, B727 and A300 (or A330's, I don't remember anymore) but was at a fairly large fleet size. I invested a lot of money into buying a hundred+ F100's to serve as B727 replacements before fuel got too ridiculous and did the change over in about 2-3 game days. If a drag parachute is deployed in that way, then there needs to be relief on the fleet commonality side of things.

This is the only reason (besides boredom) why I have ever had a significant number of frames parked.  If I buy planes to lease I want them leased out, and will price them at whatever level it takes to get them there.  But at large airline sizes it can be impossible to run 4 fleets profitably, so if you need 3 fleets to cover your op requirements you must accumulate enough new aircraft of a new type to do the swap from one type to another all at once.

Offline [ATA] b757capt

  • Members
  • Posts: 703
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2013, 12:14:52 AM »
That isn't the point.  The point is production lines are being jammed up by the "rich" players and aircraft are kept out of the hands of players who need it as a result.  If production slots were infinite it wouldn't matter, but they are finite and every slot taken by a player is at the detriment of another.

Well see now you bring up an interesting discussion on slots and why you can't order aircraft infront of your current slots, even if they are open. So unrealistic.

Offline Infinity

  • Members
  • Posts: 1564
    • Aviation Awareness
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2013, 06:34:02 AM »
That isn't the point.  The point is production lines are being jammed up by the "rich" players and aircraft are kept out of the hands of players who need it as a result.  If production slots were infinite it wouldn't matter, but they are finite and every slot taken by a player is at the detriment of another.

This is not true. You imply that players order these aircraft and then let them sit idle, but that's not what happens. Those players put the planes on the used market and lease them out. Even more so, because the number of planes ordered by the rich players is greater than the overall demand of aircraft, these planes end up being leased out for very cheap to generate any revenue, thus benefiting the smaller airlines.

That's your entire argument collapsing. No detriment I can see.

Offline Pukeko

  • Members
  • Posts: 958
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2013, 07:18:45 PM »
The problem is near the end of the game where the big players have huge sums of money.

The leasing market is all but gone as few new players are joining and the dwindling number of survivors either own or their planes or have a huge selection of aircraft to choose from from the UM. So what happens, is people put in massive orders for aircraft that they have no intention of flying and a limited chance to lease simply to avoid paying large tax bills and increasing their company value to absurd levels.

OK, so general avoidance of tax is an actualy realistic aspect of most businesses. But if airlines choose to do it this by acquiring large nubers of aircraft, they should have to pay huge fees to park their brand new A380s if they can't lease them.

Offline Infinity

  • Members
  • Posts: 1564
    • Aviation Awareness
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2013, 09:12:20 PM »
What was the essence of this post of yours?
It was, again, a butt hurt proposal to end something that is to no ones disadvantage but to a lot of peoples advantage by providing cheap planes when fuel goes up, thus enabling more players to sustain their business.

All I read is that you want it abolished, but I have yet to read any reason as to why this is necessary. Let alone a valid one. The fact that you don't want others to achieve extremely high CVs certainly isn't one - it simply doesn't hurt anyone else.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2013, 09:29:38 PM »
The problem is near the end of the game where the big players have huge sums of money.

(edited for brevity)

OK, so general avoidance of tax is an actualy realistic aspect of most businesses. But if airlines choose to do it this by acquiring large nubers of aircraft, they should have to pay huge fees to park their brand new A380s if they can't lease them.


Your proposed solution would apply across the board, for all planes, at all times, regardless of the reason for them being unscheduled : bit heavy-handed for resolving an issue which, seemingly, involves very large aircraft being bought to avoid taxes at the end of the game period....?

Offline Pukeko

  • Members
  • Posts: 958
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2013, 05:26:27 AM »

Your proposed solution would apply across the board, for all planes, at all times, regardless of the reason for them being unscheduled : bit heavy-handed for resolving an issue which, seemingly, involves very large aircraft being bought to avoid taxes at the end of the game period....?

OK, not quite true. I just see it as an unrealistic part of the game. One of the things I like about AWS is that it is a game based around running an airline comparable to running an airline real life. Of course in real life its not quite that easy and a lot more complicated and in 99% of time, doomed to failure. There are of course many things in the game that are somewhat unrealistic to make it playable (and enjoyable) but to me, buying aircraft that you have no intention to fly or little chance to lease is not one of them and is easily fixed.

Of course I do things in the game to avoid paying taxes... like real life, but in real life governments are constantly changing the rules to stop these loop holes. What I am proposing is that the higher authorities (Sami) implement some sort of fee (above a notional insurance fee) if you have a large number of aircraft sitting idle. It wouldn't penalise normal operations of an airline where you might have planes sitting on the tarmac waiting for slots or for sale (maybe you could have 10,20...50 sitting in your hanger?) but if you have 1000 then you would pay for storage. This might make you think twice about buying them all and maybe you would be a good citizen and pay your taxes.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 06:05:48 AM by Pukeko »

Offline Mr.HP

  • Members
  • Posts: 2730
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2013, 06:21:42 AM »
All I read is that you want it abolished, but I have yet to read any reason as to why this is necessary. Let alone a valid one. The fact that you don't want others to achieve extremely high CVs certainly isn't one - it simply doesn't hurt anyone else.

Doesn't hurt mega airline, either. Their CVs still increase even if they have to pay 30% of their profit to taxman  ;)

Maybe you won't complaint if there's an achievement like "Contributing XXX amount of tax to the government"  ::)

This is to make AWS a little bit more realistic. I think an administrative and maintenance fee applied for unscheduled A/C is reasonable, you can't expect an A/C with 100% condition after 10 years parking inattentive

Offline Pukeko

  • Members
  • Posts: 958
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2013, 11:09:02 AM »
Doesn't hurt mega airline, either. Their CVs still increase even if they have to pay 30% of their profit to taxman  ;)

Maybe you won't complaint if there's an achievement like "Contributing XXX amount of tax to the government"  ::)

This is to make AWS a little bit more realistic. I think an administrative and maintenance fee applied for unscheduled A/C is reasonable, you can't expect an A/C with 100% condition after 10 years parking inattentive

I also thought that total tax could be an acheivement... but actually wanting to increase your tax bill!???!?! I guess that would take away some realism! ::)

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2013, 03:06:39 PM »
This is not true. You imply that players order these aircraft and then let them sit idle, but that's not what happens. Those players put the planes on the used market and lease them out. Even more so, because the number of planes ordered by the rich players is greater than the overall demand of aircraft, these planes end up being leased out for very cheap to generate any revenue, thus benefiting the smaller airlines.

That's your entire argument collapsing. No detriment I can see.

It is true because those idle aircraft are offered at 50% over fair value.  Look at the initial screenshot--the aircraft have been idle for over 5 years with 0 flight hours.  Those new aircraft production slots are being taken up by rich players and the "poor" players are stuck waiting longer for aircraft or overpaying substantially on the used market.  No aircraft are being leased out very cheap because there is no benefit of doing so.  If there were a penalty for aircraft parked more than 3 months lets say, then there would incentive to have it leased out cheap versus not leased out at all.

Most airlines are publicly held companies and CEOs report to a board of directors.  Do you think the board of ANY airline would allow a CEO to order 10s, if not 100s of planes with no route potential?  These are huge capital investments and while airlines do lease out aircraft, they don't purchase aircraft outright so they can lease it--they only lease it when they no longer need the aircraft when they do a fleet upgrade etc.

Offline Infinity

  • Members
  • Posts: 1564
    • Aviation Awareness
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2013, 05:38:16 PM »
It is true because those idle aircraft are offered at 50% over fair value. 

No they are not. Case closed. Every player wants his planes to lease out, when the market is flooded you cant lease them over fair value. It simply doesn't work. Period.

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5992
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2013, 06:22:53 PM »
No they are not. Case closed. Every player wants his planes to lease out, when the market is flooded you cant lease them over fair value. It simply doesn't work. Period.

Agreed.  It is simple Supply / Demand issue.  Early in the game, it is possible to lease at much higher price than value, but once the supply catches up, the UM rates drop below value.  A lot of aircraft ends up being listed at minimum (70% of value).

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2013, 10:55:09 PM »
No they are not. Case closed.

How is this an argument?  Would you like to back it up with an actual argument?  You are dumb.  Case closed.  See?  It doesn't work.

To say it is simple supply and demand is nonsense.  5 years ago the BAC 1-11 line was jammed up when these aircraft were produced and there was a 12+ month lead time for aircraft.  I know because I fly BAC 1-11 and was one of the players ordering new aircraft, but instead of parking them I actually fly them.

The aircraft are still listed above fair market value and not leased out.  Again, if this were a real company the board of directors would have tossed him out years ago for having $50+ million in assets with a negative RONA.

Production slots are finite, just like slots.  The supply/demand dynamics are the exact same--a slot is bought at the detriment of other players in the game and it is first come/first serve.  This is an issue, and it should be addressed so the big airlines' unrealistic actions (slot hogging, parking aircraft) are discouraged versus promoted.  The problem seems to be most of the naysayers in this thread are the ones known for running mega airlines that are likely guilty of using this strategy to avoid the tax man and clog up production lines.  It is anti-competitive (just like slot hogging) and shouldn't be allowed.

Offline Infinity

  • Members
  • Posts: 1564
    • Aviation Awareness
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2013, 07:19:49 AM »
Quote
How is this an argument?

It isn't. It is a simple matter of supply & demand, there are no two opinions on this. Only one universally valid fact.

Quote
The aircraft are still listed above fair market value and not leased out.

And how many are that? Just because one player has no interest in his planes leasing out doesn't mean that it's a general problem.

Quote
It is anti-competitive (just like slot hogging) and shouldn't be allowed.

I, and others, have now brought forward valid reasons for the invalidity of your argument. Yet still, you continue to recite the same like a mantra.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 07:24:24 AM by saftfrucht »

Offline Teadaze

  • Members
  • Posts: 777
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2013, 11:45:08 AM »
storage fee is kinda dumb, yes you can claim that the large airline is hogging production slot. But as a person who started in 2013 in last MT, there is no way you can afford a brand spanking new 330/340/767/777/787/380 wide body at market value, I have managed to kill -2- larger and started earlier airline because they decided to order a380 or take them at market value. Those large airline who lease them out at 40-70% allows new player in a VERY difficult oil price situation to survive and expand faster.

Yes it has some drawback as the smaller medium airline might not get a straight production line because larger airline has them already, but it is not their fault for you to be slow on order, or to take risk and do early order instead of expansion.

The economics of AWS allows successful airline to be broker, yes they evade some tax but they are also spending those money to be aircraft. If they are not leased out they lose money(as they are not gaining). And at one point the supply will overrun the demand. The system is not perfect but I think it is ok as is right now.

If you implement storage fee the one will get hurt is those medium small airline who is barely making enough waiting for delivery and can't afford to deploy their new plane because of 3+ fleet commonality penalty. the large airline will just shrug and continue to afk.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 11:51:47 AM by Aoitsuki »

Offline Pukeko

  • Members
  • Posts: 958
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2013, 12:50:36 PM »
The medium / small airline will only be hurt if storage fee is applied to every plane grounded. I'm not suggesting this. There should be a limit to the number of planes that you can have sitting idle without flying though... after that, a storage fee could be implemented.

That way it would only hurt mega airlines that are simply buying aircraft to increase company value - which is unrealistic.

Offline Teadaze

  • Members
  • Posts: 777
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2013, 12:57:34 PM »
so pretty much every thread I read is against large airline, be it with fleet commonality, slot, idle aircraft. This is not world of warcraft where weaker player get a boost to be on the same level playing field with people who take time on playing. I doubt this is what sami vision AWS to be, unless he wants everyone to play 2 game world and call it quit as you have done it all already. Last I check there are other simulation that caters that.

There is a reason some airline got larger then other, while some other doesn't. And no, it does not have to do with cheating. Luck, knowledge, timing and dedication has to do with it. People who place more hour in this game or willing to take a risk should be rewarded, and often we see top tier player fails. Rather then pushing on these small change I would rather people quit putting every little request and let sami work on the bigger picture such as city based demand, airport slot expansion etc.

Try putting too much restriction and there will be and people who play 3+ game world on any given time will call it quit, and the casual will rejoice as every world will become beginner's world  ;).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 12:59:57 PM by Aoitsuki »

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2013, 01:01:02 PM »
This is not true. You imply that players order these aircraft and then let them sit idle, but that's not what happens.

I, and others, have now brought forward valid reasons for the invalidity of your argument. Yet still, you continue to recite the same like a mantra.

I just proved this is exactly what is happening with a screenshot of 3 aircraft that are 5+ years old with 0 flight hours and you want to tell me this isn't happening and somehow what you stated is universally valid fact?  Give me a break.  Attached are even more examples on the current used market in DOTM that I must have photoshopped since it is universally valid fact that it never happens.  And wouldn't you know it--one of the largest airlines in the game is the biggest offender.  I'm not in any other game, but I'm sure it is just as bad in the other mature game worlds like JA and in several years it will be happening in MT--which is an even bigger deal because MT is the largest game world with the most players.

The bottom line is slot hogging and production slot hogging are the same thing and they are both anti-competitive.  We can talk until we are blue in the face about why it is or isn't, but the bottom line is both are finite and one player unnecessarily using a slot is to the detriment of other players.

On top of this, if this apparently never happens and large airlines aren't parking planes, why is there so much resistance to implementing a fee or some other system to discourage it?  If it rarely happens then it shouldn't effect anyone on a regular basis, yet the players who run mega airlines are lobbying against it.  Color me cynical.

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2013, 01:08:27 PM »
so pretty much every thread I read is against large airline, be it with fleet commonality, slot, idle aircraft. This is not world of warcraft where weaker player get a boost to be on the same level playing field with people who take time on playing. I doubt this is what sami vision AWS to be, unless he wants everyone to play 2 game world and call it quit as you have done it all already. Last I check there are other simulation that caters that.

There is a reason some airline got larger then other, while some other doesn't. And no, it does not have to do with cheating. Luck, knowledge, timing and dedication has to do with it. People who place more hour in this game or willing to take a risk should be rewarded, and often we see top tier player fails. Rather then pushing on these small change I would rather people quit putting every little request and let sami work on the bigger picture such as city based demand, airport slot expansion etc.

Try putting too much restriction and there will be and people who play 3+ game world on any given time will call it quit, and the casual will rejoice as every world will become beginner's world  ;).

The reason every thread is against the mega airlines is because resources are finite and they have the cash to use the current systems to their advantage to the detriment of other players, whether it be buying up airport slots or production slots.  The reason it is an issue is because it is first come/first served, which is not the way it happens in real life but is the only way that makes sense in AWS.  It is just the nature of the game that players will try to grow as large as they can, which is perfectly fine, but there should be limits to growth or else you'll see an airline with 10,000 aircraft.  This is why you are limited to 4 bases and costs go up logarithmically as you add bases and fleet types.  This has worked successfully in keeping the large airlines in check, but there are still issues with slots and production lines.  You used to be able to buy slots with negative money, not it is cash only.  That didn't fully solve the problem, so now there is a new pricing algorithm and there was a lot of backlash (rightfully so since it was implemented in a running game without any lead time), and now we are going to a terminal system (it sounds like at least) and the city-based demand is going to be implemented to help solve the slot issue to spread the love across all airports in a city.  It is easy to see why production slots takes a back seat to airport slots, but there is still work to be done on the production slot side as well.

Offline Pukeko

  • Members
  • Posts: 958
Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2013, 01:11:21 PM »
I guess it depends if you want to end up with a game with 20 mega airlines only - sounds a bit boring to me, or a game dominated by several hundred small / medium sized airlines. Im not saying that mega airlines won't (and shouldn't) exist - they are an important part of the game, but I think the game development should be towards the bulk of the players - who don't operate mega airlines.

And Lemonbutt is right. If "this apparently never happens and large airlines aren't parking planes, why is there so much resistance to implementing a fee or some other system to discourage it".
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 01:17:03 PM by Pukeko »

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.