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Author Topic: [ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft  (Read 4094 times)

Offline Pukeko

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[ok] Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« on: August 31, 2013, 04:36:51 PM »
I'd like to see a storage fee applied to aircraft owned but not been used. This would make the decision to buy aircraft with no intention to fly them a bit more of a gamble - ie. will the aircraft be able to be leased out or not? A lot of players are simply buying aircraft to avoid tax and increase their company value. The end result is some carriers by game end have hundreds of frames sitting idle. In the real world they would need a large area to store these aircraft in, and so there should be an additional fee associated with this.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 02:02:04 PM by sami »

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2013, 08:10:32 PM »
There is a fee...a random check of an A319 I have on the market in MT shows this in the weekly estimate:

Sold tickets    0 USD
Line maintenance (A+B)    0 USD
Insurance   -14 340 USD
Fuel cost    0 USD
Route fees (1)    0 USD
Total estimated   -14 340 USD
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline ArcherII

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2013, 08:19:12 PM »
He mentions a "storage" fee, like renting a space at victorville or Mojave. 14k in the great scope of things isn't going to exactly scare accountants on the big boys.

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2013, 08:36:47 PM »
He mentions a "storage" fee, like renting a space at victorville or Mojave. 14k in the great scope of things isn't going to exactly scare accountants on the big boys.

No, but do you think airlines and leasing companies are really paying $60,000 a month to store a plane at Victorville? The parking fees for Victorville can be found here:

http://www.victorvillecity.com/economic-development/scla-industrial-area/aviation-services/fees-rates-and-parking/

fee for airlines storing aircraft is $200/day, $1400/week, $5600/month. So by being forced to carry liability on planes that may be uninsured or insured for far less IRL, airlines are paying more in AWS than they would IRL to store an aircraft.

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline ArcherII

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2013, 09:04:49 PM »
I guess you're right. Maybe this "issue" is more associated with macroeconomics, than with fees. At some point there would be an economic disadvantage to have lots of newbuild tubes standing idle IRL that doesn't translate into AWS.

Offline Sami

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2013, 09:06:03 PM »
Nice dig for the link; I guess this would be good to add, even though a minimal economic impact, but just for the sake of it.

If not for sale and not scheduled => impose the fee?  Or even when for sale?

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2013, 09:27:57 PM »
Nice dig for the link; I guess this would be good to add, even though a minimal economic impact, but just for the sake of it.

If not for sale and not scheduled => impose the fee?  Or even when for sale?

How about the fee just compounds?  They are paying $14k/month for insurance.  If you make it an additional $14k/month every months so month 1 = $14k, month 2 = $28k, etc. it starts to really add up.  If you have 10 aircraft idle for a year it will cost you 10 aircraft * $14k * (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12) = $11 million/year.  Still a drop in the bucket, but since production is a fixed pie, every aircraft they order from the factory and don't fly/lease out is at the detriment of another airline.  Better yet, the penalty should be much higher than that when I think about it.  How about a 3 month grace period (should be plenty of time to find a willing airline to lease/buy and/or buy slots to fly it yourself) and then the juice starts.

Since Player Wealth is also tracked, instead of airlines buying aircraft for the sake of buying aircraft, why not let them pay a huge bonus to themselves?  That money is sucked out of the game, isn't taxed, and can't be used as a loan asset.

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2013, 10:46:42 PM »
Nice dig for the link; I guess this would be good to add, even though a minimal economic impact, but just for the sake of it.

If not for sale and not scheduled => impose the fee?  Or even when for sale?

The plane has to sit some where if it is not flying, whether for sale or just idle. I would say idle, unscheduled plane = parking fee + insurance and plane for sale = parking fee and possibly some smaller insurance (since liability insurance does not do much if the plane is mothballed.)

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline Karl

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2013, 12:03:19 AM »
As was pointed out, there really already is a storage fee of sorts.

While I might like such a discounted feature - especially in game worlds where older aircraft are being replaced (some before their leases are over), my fear is that an airline could corner the market on a type and put them all into storage just to keep them from competitors.

I would hope this would not happen, but if the program allows it, someone would abuse it!


Offline schro

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2013, 02:11:35 AM »
The plane has to sit some where if it is not flying, whether for sale or just idle. I would say idle, unscheduled plane = parking fee + insurance and plane for sale = parking fee and possibly some smaller insurance (since liability insurance does not do much if the plane is mothballed.)

Don

Thus, at the end of the day, it would equal about what insurance is today, just a portion of it is reallocated to storage fees. To me, that makes sense, as there's plenty of other costs (i.e. opportunity costs, depreciation of the asset, etc) that an airline incurs by buying instead of leasing.

The exponential fleet commonality penalties can also play a large role in parked planes (but that's a different feature request with regards to fleet transition planning). In early MT8, I was running A320, B727 and A300 (or A330's, I don't remember anymore) but was at a fairly large fleet size. I invested a lot of money into buying a hundred+ F100's to serve as B727 replacements before fuel got too ridiculous and did the change over in about 2-3 game days. If a drag parachute is deployed in that way, then there needs to be relief on the fleet commonality side of things.

As was pointed out, there really already is a storage fee of sorts.

While I might like such a discounted feature - especially in game worlds where older aircraft are being replaced (some before their leases are over), my fear is that an airline could corner the market on a type and put them all into storage just to keep them from competitors.

I would hope this would not happen, but if the program allows it, someone would abuse it!



In the average game world, there's usually a VERY small handful of airlines that have the ability to buy whatever planes they want and park them. Even then, with their efforts combined, it would be difficult to corner the market on a popular type, especially as most of those airlines will probably want to fly said popular type. Between ongoing bankruptcies, production line increases and general game controls already in place, I don't see this as much of an issue.

Offline Pukeko

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2013, 04:29:38 AM »
A very simple way to implement (although I am sure it would be highly unpopular) would simply be to apply the commonality charges to your whole fleet (whether flying or not). Do airlines really purchase dozens (hundreds) of planes of a type that they never have any intention of flying so that they can lease the out? I don't know, maybe they do? But they way it currently works is that for these planes an airline owns (and does not fly), they have no pilots, no maintenance systems.... etc.

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2013, 06:54:13 AM »
A very simple way to implement (although I am sure it would be highly unpopular) would simply be to apply the commonality charges to your whole fleet (whether flying or not).

This already happens. It just doesn't apply to entire fleets that aren't flying. But if you fly 10 727s and have 50 more parked, you're paying commonality costs for all 60.

Offline schro

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2013, 02:00:15 PM »
A very simple way to implement (although I am sure it would be highly unpopular) would simply be to apply the commonality charges to your whole fleet (whether flying or not). Do airlines really purchase dozens (hundreds) of planes of a type that they never have any intention of flying so that they can lease the out? I don't know, maybe they do? But they way it currently works is that for these planes an airline owns (and does not fly), they have no pilots, no maintenance systems.... etc.

That's how it worked until about a year or so ago - that change was made at some point during the v1.3 change log. The complaint with that system, is lets say you do lease out a fleet type that you no longer fly, the moment it gets returned (either intentionally or by that airline's bankruptcy), your commonality costs go through the roof until you relist it on the market. A 10m valued prop could cost a 1000 frame airline 50+ million per WEEK in commonality if that was brought back... that itself makes no sense either.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2013, 09:53:38 PM »
This is why there should be a fee for idle aircraft.  Large airlines buy them up from the factory to avoid the tax man and put them on the used market for exorbitant prices to the detriment of the other players in the game.  5 year old aircraft should have more than 0 flight hours.

brique

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 01:32:13 AM »
if such a charge was introduced, in return, there will need to be a way to bring forward the current 'scrapping' age : otherwise, a player-broker could be hit hard in the event of having unsold/returned aircraft : it would certainly put me off holding any stock of a less popular type if the parking fees end up costing as much as the plane over its shelf-life : I think we need to look a bit at the potential 'law of unintended consequences' here before instituting such a charge : stocking smaller aircraft would be a financial folly :  There are very few birds which stay saleable over a 15yr span or into the last decade of a game : which means I'd have to stop buying new planes for lease 20-25yrs before game world end to avoid that inevitable full 'end of days' parking lot.

So, speaking as a player-broker who tends to specialise in small aircraft : I would have to stop as the penalty for not selling any aircraft would make it somewhat idiotic to contemplate buying one for lease, unless you had a cast-iron customer already in place who you knew was 100% not going to BK or return it before 15yrs is up and so you can scrap it fast before the parking wardens clamp it for unpaid fees. : Right, that shouldn't be hard to find, eh?

Offline schro

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 02:28:58 AM »
This is why there should be a fee for idle aircraft.  Large airlines buy them up from the factory to avoid the tax man and put them on the used market for exorbitant prices to the detriment of the other players in the game.  5 year old aircraft should have more than 0 flight hours.

Have you paid attention to the demand level in this particular game world? I filled up DAL with about 40 F.27's prior to DFW opening. I did NOTHING for over 10 or 12 game years.

brique

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2013, 02:50:30 AM »
Indeed, schro, there is more than the one reason to be buying planes and parking them : future planning for re-fleets, especially if it involves switching sets of 7-day schedules to the new type, stock for a new base, or just simply keeping the lines open for another year, or hulls awaiting disposal after a re-fleet : all of which are perfectly valid reasons to be holding unscheduled aircraft : I would worry that if a penalty 'parking' cost was applied, it would discourage re-fleets : the only sensible option would be to fly a plane until scrap-age and then hope a suitable replacement is still in production : which would be rather dull game-play and only encourage the 'standard' model method : only buying the type we all know will be either still in production of have a suitable replacement in production in 10-15yrs, and, of course, rely on that replacement being replacable in 10-15yrs after that, and so on. Nice for Airbutt and Boring, but sheesh, imagine the production queue if those are the only planes being flown?

Offline Frederik

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2013, 11:46:25 AM »
There is in fact an implicit storage fee for the aircraft - insurance continues to be charged for the frames whether they fly or not.

Should we (as I hope we will) go to the inclusion of terminals in the game a parking fee at the gates or otherwise could be included (as most RL airports do). As these rates will be different from airport to airport maybe we will all send our aircraft to Victorville... (hope we won't need to open a base there!)

F
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Offline [ATA] frimp

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2013, 12:27:44 PM »
An issue I also find is that with the current mechanics of the game there is no incentive to scrap old planes. (especially in longer games)
It's better to put them on sale on the UM (with no intention of selling them) but keeping them for your company value.

as a result people don't use scrapping of the old planes when they really should, as it doesnt make financial sense to scrap them.

I see 2 solutions to this problem:

1. Force airlines to keep paying for C&D checks when planes are listed for sale - so that planes are kept in good condition, which will encourage users to lease/buy them. . (if pricing is reasonable - maybe game mechanics should force that planes from 14-15yrs of age can only be sold/leased at MV or lower) => I see this as easing pressure on production slots of new aircrafts. In addition airlines will have to think 2x about offloading these planes, as competitors could pick them up cheaply.
If maintenance is not performed then usual fines/CI drops should apply

2. (my preferred), when a plane is listed for sale, it's value gets deducted from the overall company value... only when the sale is made/realised should it get added back to your company value (as it will go to your cash). This would discourage users from holding onto older aircrafts and flooding the UM with aircrafts without maintenance and never intending to sell them.

maybe even both could be implemented to work together.

once terminals get implemented, then this should also solve the problem as long as aircrafts on sale are taking up spaces at the terminals!

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Storage Fee for idle aircraft
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2013, 01:11:59 PM »
Have you paid attention to the demand level in this particular game world? I filled up DAL with about 40 F.27's prior to DFW opening. I did NOTHING for over 10 or 12 game years.

That isn't the point.  The point is production lines are being jammed up by the "rich" players and aircraft are kept out of the hands of players who need it as a result.  If production slots were infinite it wouldn't matter, but they are finite and every slot taken by a player is at the detriment of another.

 

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