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Author Topic: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group  (Read 1527 times)

Offline schro

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Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« on: August 29, 2013, 03:16:47 AM »
I've thought on this a bit ever since the demand engine changes were made and it seems to make sense to me that the 757 and the 767 should be treated as a single fleet group for scheduling/commonality purposes (yet still retain the 757 as a large and the 767 as an extra large sized aircraft).  From a reality basis, they share a common pilot rating (not 100% perfect on jargon) as they have a similar cockpit design and technology characteristics. They also have the same cruise speed.

The net effect of the demand engine changes is that it has effectively orphaned the 757 fleet as being too small for most routes and too big for the rest of the routes out there. It would serve as a good compliment to the 767 fleet group from a fleet planning perspective (i.e. 3000-3800nm TATL flights that don't need a 763/764's capacity that would be toast due to being too small on A32x/B73x fleet groups).

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2013, 12:55:30 PM »
I oppose this, just because it is already too easy/cheap to fly the 757 and 767.  Doing this would just jam up the production lines even further.  However, I do think there should be a discount of some sort applied if you run both fleets, because as you said they do share a type rating.  Perhaps classify it as a Very Large Aircraft flown by Large Aircraft pilots?

Offline schro

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2013, 01:27:37 PM »
I oppose this, just because it is already too easy/cheap to fly the 757 and 767.  Doing this would just jam up the production lines even further.  However, I do think there should be a discount of some sort applied if you run both fleets, because as you said they do share a type rating.  Perhaps classify it as a Very Large Aircraft flown by Large Aircraft pilots?

Actually, the 757 and 767s are quite challenging to fly, especially in MT scenarios where persistently high fuel prices are prevalent through most of the game world.

For the 757, it is boxed in and not able to fly many route as it stands. Let's say you're in the Northeast US running transcons - A32x and B73x will eat you for lunch on a frequency and cost per seat basis and you'll end up bankrupt. Then lets say the same northeast airline starts them on TATL routes that fit perfectly, but as demand grows, the 757 becomes too small and your opponents eat you for lunch with their wide body.

For the 767, the 200 is not economical by the time the year 2000 rolls around (depending on what fuel is doing, but anything above free is too much to pay with one). The 300 starts hitting the breakeven level at the standard MT oil pricing that starts in the mid 2000's, and the 400 is the only one that really prints money (which of course, you don't get in numbers until the mid-2000's).

When you compare the 757/767 combo to the A330/A340 combo, they're very similar, other than the 757/767 being about 2 pants sizes smaller than the airbus combo - thus, if the airbus folks have that sort of flexibility for their long haul fleets, it only makes sense for the Boeing side to have the same option on frames that were designed as common fleet types.

I don't see why the aircraft class has to change - the 757 would be "large" and the 767 would be "Very Large" as they are today - my change has to do with the commonality and scheduling.

Offline dmoose42

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 09:32:12 PM »
We could just separate the 330/340 to put them on equal footing ;)

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2013, 09:47:10 PM »
So the argument is then that the largest narrowbody aircraft ever made that was designed 20 years ago can't compete against today's 737 on intercontinental routes because of frequency and the 767 is challenging to fly because it is the smallest widebody so other widebodies have an advantage?  With that logic, why fly either fleet group at all when you're going to be toast regardless?

Offline dmoose42

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2013, 09:49:41 PM »
I would like to point out that there have been nearly 1000 orders for 757 and 400 for 767-200 in DOTM before either have entered production so the planes can't be TOOOOOO bad on a stand-alone basis...

I did not order either varietal, because I generally agree with David on the profit potential of both.

Offline schro

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2013, 04:07:17 PM »
So the argument is then that the largest narrowbody aircraft ever made that was designed 20 years ago can't compete against today's 737 on intercontinental routes because of frequency and the 767 is challenging to fly because it is the smallest widebody so other widebodies have an advantage?  With that logic, why fly either fleet group at all when you're going to be toast regardless?

No, I'm saying that the two were built and designed to compliment each other in an airline's fleet and were the first airliners to be designed with commonality in mind between the two similar, but different, families. There are plenty of cases in game where a 757/767 combination would be far more appropriate (and profitable) to use, specifically at airports that do not need ships that are the size of the A330/340 family based on the demand available there. The 757/767 are cheaper to operate on a per flight basis, thus are more profitable in lower demand airports or in airports where they would be a good compliment to a 777 fleet type to cover the higher range/demand routes, and these fill in the gap, which would leave the ability to have a narrow body below it to remain at the magic 3 fleet types.

I did quite well in MT7 out of JFK using the A32x and 767 as my primary fleets, but there were many cases where it would have been great to have the 757 as an option in that commonality grouping for specific missions.

Offline Hueyoneil

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 01:13:39 AM »
Sami,

Are there any updates on combining the two into one fleet group?

Offline CarlBagot

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 10:11:49 PM »
Honestly this speaks to another problem, partial commonality. The 757 and 767 have enough differences to not be in the same fleet group but are common enough that they should not be treated like a A320/Tu-204 difference. The same applies for 737-200/Classic/NG, 747-100/400, BAE/Avro 146 (ok this one is probably same group), Fokker 27/50, etc....


Even the A300-B6/A330 should have at least some level of partial commonality. I propose that there be standard levels of partial commonality, such as 75% discount on fleet commonality for very similar types (A330/A340?), 50% for  somewhat similar types (757/767, 737-200/737-300, 737-500/737-800, 747-300/747-400, DC9/MD80/MD90/717), and 25% for distant but concrete similarities A300/A330 (Same fuselage cross section, cockpit on some models, possibly more), 707/737-200/and 727? (same fuselage cross section, same doors, similar cockpit).

Other models of commonality could be the DHC-8 and the Q400 (Unsure) and others iv'e forgotten.

Offline Hueyoneil

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 11:51:16 PM »
That is a good point, however, the original point was that in the real world (or at least at Delta), the 757/767 share the same fleet group, pilots, etc. That is with the exception of the -400ER model. The basis of the 757 and 767 cockpits are nearly identical. Thus, we should not have to pay for separate training, administrative fees, etc. for the two.

Thanks,
Huey

Offline schro

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2014, 02:25:05 AM »
Honestly this speaks to another problem, partial commonality. The 757 and 767 have enough differences to not be in the same fleet group but are common enough that they should not be treated like a A320/Tu-204 difference. The same applies for 737-200/Classic/NG, 747-100/400, BAE/Avro 146 (ok this one is probably same group), Fokker 27/50, etc....


Even the A300-B6/A330 should have at least some level of partial commonality. I propose that there be standard levels of partial commonality, such as 75% discount on fleet commonality for very similar types (A330/A340?), 50% for  somewhat similar types (757/767, 737-200/737-300, 737-500/737-800, 747-300/747-400, DC9/MD80/MD90/717), and 25% for distant but concrete similarities A300/A330 (Same fuselage cross section, cockpit on some models, possibly more), 707/737-200/and 727? (same fuselage cross section, same doors, similar cockpit).

Other models of commonality could be the DHC-8 and the Q400 (Unsure) and others iv'e forgotten.

The game isn't structured to go hog wild combining commonality across 50 years of jets. There has to be a breaking point somewhere. One of the design elements of the sim is that any plane that is of the same "group" will also have the same speed characteristics, which will allow schedules to be swapped from one type to another without any rescheduling or calculation of the route. The 737 classics cruise significantly slower than the NG's...

As much as I would like it, the partial commonality concept won't really work in the game model. The game model is set to punish folks for going nuts with too many fleet types as it is a way to grow really quickly. If there's only 3 major fleet types left in the game after lots of consolidation, then there's not much strategy left in picking the "right" combination of fleet types to do well.

Offline CarlBagot

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2014, 09:06:04 AM »
That's fine but that means that on this aspect AWS is more Game than Sim, there is a reason corporations tend to stick to a few fleet types or at least have a sizable fleet of each type and that can be modeled. What the game is missing however is somewhat what you were mentioning, path dependence, where ones decision affects their future decisions.

If  its 707 vs DC-8 right now you can see the DC-8 has the super 60's and should be the better choice, but what if by choosing the 707 you would save money if you wanted to operate the 737, then having the 737 already you would choose the 737-300/400/500 over the A320-100 and the 737-600/700/800/900 over the newer A32X's, this is reality and game together. Rarely do operators change their path dependence unless there is better slots, deals or is an overwhelming superiority in the competing types. I find that fun, others maybe not, but I find the idea of having no penalty switching between 737 and the A320 between each generation silly (as the cost is the same for each), and southwest pressured Boeing to keep the 737's nose as it is to ensure maximum commonality at the cost of greater efficiency, so that it may replace 737's with a newer generation of 737's each generation.

Offline FloF

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2015, 10:07:13 AM »
I think that the commonality between 757 and 767 is just a small fraction of the whole "fleet commonality" issue. Presently I find the way that airwaysim restricts you to three fleet types in a basically artificial manner one of the major three downsides of the game. There are plenty of suggestions on how to improve the issue in a more general fashion that just grouping 757 and 767. I hope that some of these suggestions will be adapted soon!

Offline kscessandriver

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Re: Combine 757 and 767 fleet group
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2015, 06:46:53 PM »
I don't think you can combine the 757/767 without combining others, specifically the DC-9, MD-80, MD-90, 717. The same type rating covers the whole line of airplanes, which would make it very advantageous to start with the DC9 and roll the whole family for the duration of the game.

 

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