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Author Topic: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format  (Read 2230 times)

Offline ezzeqiel

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Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« on: August 09, 2013, 07:06:00 PM »
So, in relation to my other thread, I'm starting to see we'll (or me at least) have a problem with commonality costs...

We all know the game pretty much limits airlines to 3 fleets.



Now, I'm thinking in my airline; I have convairs and DC6s... (with some DC4s about to be phased out)

In some years from now, I'll start to phase out my convairs in order to acquire new planes... I'll do the same with DC6s...


The problem is that I have 208 convairs to change (and counting).

Let's suppouse I change them for the 727s... they have a production rate of 16 planes a month... that means I'll be getting 2-3 planes a month.


Doing some math, It'll take me 7 years to replace the entire convairs fleet.

That seems ok, but if the same happens with my second fleet, then I'll be having 4 fleets for 7 years, when I'll probably start the process again in order to replace my planes again. If you don't want to have the 4th fleet penalty, then with two fleets, you can change only one fleet at the time, which means, it'll take 14 years to change your 2 fleets with no penalty (by that time, the replacement aircrafts will be already obsolete).


And I'm talking about 2 main fleets with two replacement... Let's not even think what would happen to an airline with 3 main fleets trying to replace all of them (7 years each fleet will mean 21 years with 4th fleet penalty) (or 7 years with 6th fleet penalty :P)


------------------------------

My suggestion would be to slighly increase the allowable fleets, in order to make fleets transitioning easier. In a long game format, we'll have a lot of fleet transitions, and commonality penalty, should take into account that...

« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 07:13:00 PM by ezzeqiel »

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2013, 10:15:39 PM »
Will be interesting to see. I'm expecting it to not be too bad when switching from my initial Martin/IL-18 fleet to the newer stuff coming in a couple of years. But I'll probably have under 250 planes at the end of that transition, so not so bad. The switches after that might result in huge costs.

One way around it might be the ability to designate a fleet as 'being replaced', which would give you a certain length of time (maybe fixed, maybe based on the delivery times of replacement order?) for which you'd still pay commonality for the fleet, but it wouldn't count against your number of fleet groups, the system would still count you as having 3 groups.

Alternatively, remove that exponentially increasing 4th fleet penalty.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 12:40:52 AM »
If your 4th fleet had a huge number of aircraft, I thought it didn't matter?

Just for fun, I looked up Delta and they have 12 fleet types with all sorts of phasing in/out and they only have 727 aircraft (I say only because 12 fleet types seems to be a lot for only 727).  Southwest has 3 fleet types when you add in AirTran and they also have ~700 aircraft and are known for their very tight fleet commonality.

It seems the additional fleet type penalty should be related to the number of aircraft you have.  Something like the first 3 fleet types are "free" and then you get an extra fleet type every so many aircraft.  I'm thinking squares would work best starting at 90.  So it would look like this:

10*(3^2) = upto 90 aircraft: 3 fleet types
+10*(4^2) = 250 aircraft: 4 fleet types
+10*(5^2) = 500 aircraft: 5 fleet types
+10*(6^2) = 860 aircraft: 6 fleet types
+10*(7^2) = 1370 aircraft: 7 fleet types

I would think it would be completely reasonable to have these fleet numbers based on aircraft count.  Of course, if you have somewhere in between, such as 200 aircraft, you'd end up with a decimal of 3.32 where you could have 3.32 fleet types.  I assume the fleet penalty algorithm uses continuous data versus discrete and would be able to plug the number right in.  So if at 300 aircraft you had 4 fleet types, you would only get a fraction of the penalty versus the full penalty since you are 0.32 or 32% of the way to the 4 fleet type mark.

Offline schro

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 01:06:34 AM »
It would seem to me that you may not have planned well for the transition from the Convairs to their successors ;-)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 01:07:26 AM »
Crikey, do I see the mysterious Trollodactal flying around here?

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2013, 01:48:31 AM »
It would seem to me that you may not have planned well for the transition from the Convairs to their successors ;-)

I'm not actually replacing my convies for 727s... it was just an example, because my whole thread was based on 727 lines, but the problem remains the same, wheter I replace them with F27s, NAMC, DC9s, 1-11s or 737s...

Anyway, the thread was not about my poor (or brilliant) fleet replacement choices :P


Crikey, do I see the mysterious Trollodactal flying around here?

If you dont't have anything meaningful to say in a thread, it's better to say nothing...

About your comment, I DK who you are talking about, but I was just giving some insights on how long format will affect games (sami was actually interested in feedback about gameplay in long game worlds)... I just think this issues could affect gameplay in longer formats more than they do in short ones... that's it... if you agree or not, you are welcome to express your opinion :)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 03:02:32 AM »
Schro was being trollish   

That's all

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2013, 03:16:40 AM »
Schro was being trollish   

That's all

Sorry then... for a moment taught you ment me... :-[

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2013, 03:30:52 AM »
If your 4th fleet had a huge number of aircraft, I thought it didn't matter?

If you have 100 planes in 3 fleets, adding a single plane of a 4th fleet will roughly double your commonality costs. If you have 10 planes in 3 fleets, adding a 4th will barely make a difference. If you have 1000 planes in 3 fleets, adding a 4th will see your commonality costs be at least 6 times higher, if not more.


as i said, it'll be interesting to see...

Offline Mr.HP

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2013, 04:28:47 AM »
If you have 100 planes in 3 fleets, adding a single plane of a 4th fleet will roughly double your commonality costs. If you have 10 planes in 3 fleets, adding a 4th will barely make a difference. If you have 1000 planes in 3 fleets, adding a 4th will see your commonality costs be at least 6 times higher, if not more.


as i said, it'll be interesting to see...

100 A/C, 40% increase with the first A/C of 4th fleet
750 A/C, 670%
1000 A/C, dunno yet, but was told 1100%

Back to the topic, I think the 3 fleets system is doing a good job at keeping mega airlines at bay. It would be next to impossible for mega airlines to go down if they are allowed several fleets as their A/C increase. It's always harder to be big, not easier. Every game is the same

So for this long game world, if you don't plan very carefully ahead, any mega airlines will be very vulnerable. Fuel spike and a little competition can knock anyone down

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2013, 05:08:41 AM »
IMO - Leave it as it is....as it is not broken.

Airlines can not sustain 200%+ growth rates each and every year...that is unrealistic.
Therefore we have to keep some measures in place to stop airlines having 1000+ aircraft (mostly leased) with no practicable and sustainable plan to replace their aging aircraft.

Basically if you have to pay a penalty for replacing fleet types, then you should have taken that into account when planning your long game strategy at the beginning of the game...instead of doing the same as most and just have a strategy of quick and massive growth....and then want the game rules changed when your strategy hits a bump in the road.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 05:14:28 AM by Kadachiman »

Offline Teadaze

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2013, 05:10:44 AM »
think the current system is fair also.... unless you really want those large airline bursting in growth because 'they can'

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 12:23:54 PM »
So if you're a mega airline with 1000 planes, why are you being penalized for having more than 3 fleet types?  It's absurd.  Every major carrier with 500+ aircraft has 4+ fleet types (Delta has 12), with exception of Southwest which has 3 fleet types.

I agree large airlines should be throttled, but the solution isn't arbitrarily restricting all airlines to 3 fleet types as it negatively affects the smaller guys with less cash more than it penalizes the mega-airlines who can absorb almost any cost you can throw at them.

It is the mega-airlines that end up shutting down due to boredom.  Why not impose some anti-monopoly restrictions on mega-airlines to throttle their growth, such as capping their marketshare/number of pax, adding a carbon tax, a luxury tax, or some other penalty based on size.

Offline Teadaze

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2013, 12:52:03 PM »
So if you're a mega airline with 1000 planes, why are you being penalized for having more than 3 fleet types?  It's absurd.  Every major carrier with 500+ aircraft has 4+ fleet types (Delta has 12), with exception of Southwest which has 3 fleet types.

we are not trying to mimic real world airline here... And I am sure if you have 4 fleet type meaning you will need 4 fleet type of personnel in every base. [/quote]

I agree large airlines should be throttled, but the solution isn't arbitrarily restricting all airlines to 3 fleet types as it negatively affects the smaller guys with less cash more than it penalizes the mega-airlines who can absorb almost any cost you can throw at them.

as mentioned, the cost of an airline having 200 aircraft adding a 4th plane type will be cheaper then a mega airline with 1000 plane having a 4th working fleet. the % multiplier is on the size of fleet. Yes they can probably adsorb the cost and still make a profit, that is only without competition. But the big guy will also be upset if he cannot afford 4th or 5th fleet while the small start up is having 6 fleet type and still make a killing. Eating enough MS to be a threat before he slim down back to 3-4 fleet.

It is the mega-airlines that end up shutting down due to boredom.  Why not impose some anti-monopoly restrictions on mega-airlines to throttle their growth, such as capping their marketshare/number of pax, adding a carbon tax, a luxury tax, or some other penalty based on size.

cap market share number of pax is the worst thing that will happen, it will drive all the mega airline to quit.
what is the difference on carbon tax, luxury tax? it will hurt more for the mega airline who stuck with strict 2-3 fleet type
penalty based on size... don't we have that already?

If you kill the penalty for having higher number of fleet(or lower it) it will only encourage those mega airline making 40 frame order and use them himself and be growing much faster. The smaller airline will be unable to compete due to lack of new generation aircraft. As opposed he can lease them out, still make a profit and the smaller guy will benefit from it.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 12:56:17 PM by Aoitsuki »

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2013, 04:07:51 PM »
Did you even read what I wrote?  Well I know you read it because you quoted it, but do you understand it?  From your response it doesn't sound like you do...

Offline Teadaze

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2013, 04:29:16 PM »
no because they don't make sense at all. So I put more gibberish and see how your suggestions will turn out.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2013, 05:18:01 PM »
no because they don't make sense at all. So I put more gibberish and see how your suggestions will turn out.

I'm really getting sick of the trolls on the AWS forum.

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 10:02:08 AM »
100 A/C, 40% increase with the first A/C of 4th fleet

It is significantly more than 40%. In JA right now, I have 99 planes, and the 2 newest are my 4th fleet. The 3 existing fleets jumped by 133%, from 1.1 million to over 2.5 million/month. Plus an extra half million/month for the 2 Tu-114s. That's 25 million/year, about 10% of revenue, for as long as it takes to replace my 3 original fleets, with a smallish airline.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 10:05:21 AM by Sanabas »

Offline Superbenj

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2013, 06:37:02 PM »
I really don't get the 4th fleet thing, it does in my opinion ruin the game a bit, although Im only really on my second proper game, so not sure what caused the issue that imposed teh restriction in the first place.

Offline Monica

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Re: Fleet commonality problem - Long game format
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2013, 03:19:52 AM »
I think Lemonbutt is right.

I can only speak of experience from the real world, but as an example: Norwegian Air Shuttle (my competing airline) has a fleet of Boeing 737-300,Boeing 737-800 and Boeing 787-8. The -300 are being phased out, so Norwegian ordered 200 new planes, both Airbus A320/neo and Boeing 737 NG/MAX. They said that there were two reasons they chose both types, first of all they got a very good deal by playing both manufacturers against each other, and second of all.. when the fleet grows to a size of 150-200 planes, having two or three types didn't matter at all. They would get great deals on maintenance, handling, training and everything else on all types, simply because they will have so many of each type.

Of course we need mechanisms that somewhat inhibit mega airlines from taking over the world, but it doesn't have to be the 4th fleet type "explosion" of commonality costs. Commonality matters, but only up to a certain number of aircraft. I would rather see market regulations/restrictions in place.

And yes it's a real world example, but Airwaysim is not an arcade game. It's trying to simulate managing an airline. I'm tired of people saying "But this isn't the real world". So what?

 

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