AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: [ok] Concorde Noise Limit  (Read 1178 times)

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
[ok] Concorde Noise Limit
« on: August 02, 2013, 04:08:25 PM »
If noise limit enforcement has become a real rule in the game mechanics, Concorde will be banned from airports it actually operated at throughout its service life in real life.

The game says Concorde is "No Noise Certification / Chapter 1" which would cause it to be banned as soon as the airport requires Chapter 2.

However, in real life, Concorde was usually (after some controversial legislative discussions) exempted from noise limits in the countries that it flew to/from. Although some countries it flew over still imposed restrictions (because they only got sonic booms and not the benefit of supersonic travel), Concorde was not actually banned from flying into or out of an airport it served due to noise limits.

For example, the US law on noise limits specifically exempts Concorde, as long as "noise levels of the airplane are reduced to the lowest levels that are economically reasonable, technologically practicable, and appropriate for the Concorde type design."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/36.301

In the UK, although a noise limit did not officially exempt Concorde, the Concorde simply breached the limits and the UK authorities looked the other way.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/concorde-breached-noise-limits-months-2426687

It appears that the noise level of the Concorde departures from LHR was later reduced to within the limits, but only through handling by experienced flight crew, and not with any hushkit or formal certification process. And Concorde continued to fly from LHR for the next 27 years until it was no longer economically viable and Airbus refused to do the MX anymore. (In other words, noise limits did not stop the service).

So, can this be reflected in the game, either by exempting Concorde from noise restrictions? Or, if it's easier to program, by giving Concorde a higher "effective" noise certification level (which achieves the same result), even though in real life the result was achieved by exempting Concorde from noise limits rather than giving Concorde an official noise certification?

« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 04:37:39 PM by sami »

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14537
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 04:23:55 PM »
Manually coded exception to this probably for US-UK/France intl routes?

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 05:22:03 PM »
Thanks. Should it be for more places too?

For financial reasons, the Concorde only flew to US, UK, and France in its last years, but before that, it also flew to other countries such as Singapore, Bahrain, Brazil, and Mexico.
I think Canada (specifically Gander) had a lot of Concorde arrivals & departures, though, but those were for operational reasons (e.g. flight testing, or tech stop), rather than O&D traffic. But Canada was willing to put up with the noise for example (at least in places like Gander where there are not as many people).

From what I understand, the origin & destination countries never banned Concorde for noise; only intermediate "fly over" countries imposed noise bans that required rerouting over unpopulated areas or over the oceans.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 05:32:26 PM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline schro

  • Members
  • Posts: 3073
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 05:31:11 PM »
I think it is hard to "what if" the Concorde beyond US/UK/FR. If the oil crisis in the 70's didn't happen, then a LOT more operators would have taken up the plane and there could still be a few dozen of them flying in various parts of the world today. From a prestige perspective, I do not think a country or airport would try to banish the Concorde for noise as it is a level of recognition that would be desired on those two levels. The Concorde's main noise problem was when cruising at supersonic speeds anyway...

From reading the US statute on the matter, the Concorde is essentially whitelisted for operation in the USA by law. For the rest of the world, I would think that it'd at least be acceptable at the largest class of airports around the world (plus the usual tech stop airports).

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 01:56:34 PM »
When city-based demand is implemented, won't this change the dynamics of using the Concorde?  When I say that, I mean we'll be able to determine whether it is flying over a populated area or not and adjust accordingly.  There is no population in the middle of the Atlantic, so the cruising speed would be mach-whatever over those areas and then subsonic over populated areas, which means players would have to fly trans-Atlantic or similar to really take advantage of the supersonic speed.  Really that is the issue--right?  The noise certification was based on supersonic flight versus subsonic flight over cities/airports, or am I mistaken?

Either way, sounds like an issue that needs to be dealt with...

Offline RibeiroR

  • Members
  • Posts: 84
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 07:06:31 AM »
I think it is hard to "what if" the Concorde beyond US/UK/FR. If the oil crisis in the 70's didn't happen, then a LOT more operators would have taken up the plane and there could still be a few dozen of them flying in various parts of the world today. From a prestige perspective, I do not think a country or airport would try to banish the Concorde for noise as it is a level of recognition that would be desired on those two levels. The Concorde's main noise problem was when cruising at supersonic speeds anyway...

From reading the US statute on the matter, the Concorde is essentially whitelisted for operation in the USA by law. For the rest of the world, I would think that it'd at least be acceptable at the largest class of airports around the world (plus the usual tech stop airports).

>when cruising at supersonic speeds anyway...

Correctly, but you must understand that Concorde don't use a turbofan engine, so the concorde engine noise are above acceptable levels in an urban area.

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2013, 11:23:14 PM »
>when cruising at supersonic speeds anyway...

Correctly, but you must understand that Concorde don't use a turbofan engine, so the concorde engine noise are above acceptable levels in an urban area.

Not all non-turbofan engines are automatically above acceptable noise levels in urban areas...

However, although Concorde is probably noisier than most modern engines, the real problem (where AWS will conflict with reality) is that it was generally whitelisted by the countries wherever it operated to/from (but not necessarily countries it flew over), because (1) design limits prevented Concorde from being as quiet as other aircraft, and (2) the prestige factor made countries look the other way, as noted above.

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2013, 05:24:00 PM »
When city-based demand is implemented, won't this change the dynamics of using the Concorde?  When I say that, I mean we'll be able to determine whether it is flying over a populated area or not and adjust accordingly.  There is no population in the middle of the Atlantic, so the cruising speed would be mach-whatever over those areas and then subsonic over populated areas, which means players would have to fly trans-Atlantic or similar to really take advantage of the supersonic speed.  Really that is the issue--right?  The noise certification was based on supersonic flight versus subsonic flight over cities/airports, or am I mistaken?

Either way, sounds like an issue that needs to be dealt with...

Well, there is the noise abatement rules when in cruise, and then you have nose abatement rules for airport. On an A99 or King Air you had to follow certain nose abatement procedures at Burbank airport. IIRC you have to throttle down when at fixed safe altitude and climb out slower.

That being said, I have no clue if the noise issues with the Concord were related only to supersonic flight over congested areas or if it had a problem complying with other noise regulations too. Sounds unlikely that it could, but I don't know. And I don't know if the Concord was exempted from the rules when flying over land, but areas that would be considered "non congested"/Sparsely populated/non populated areas.

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2013, 07:17:04 PM »
That being said, I have no clue if the noise issues with the Concord were related only to supersonic flight over congested areas or if it had a problem complying with other noise regulations too. Sounds unlikely that it could, but I don't know. And I don't know if the Concord was exempted from the rules when flying over land, but areas that would be considered "non congested"/Sparsely populated/non populated areas.

Canada allowed Concorde to fly supersonic over land (so that BA and AF could use Great Circle routes to New York), but it had to be along pre-approved flight corridors. I don't know exactly what part of Canada the approved flight corridors passed over, but I assume that they were designed to be over sparsely populated or unpopulated areas.

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14537
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2015, 09:06:39 PM »
Working on noise limits, and will implement a full global whitelist for the two supersonic planes. So they are exempt from all noise regulations everywhere, otherwise too difficult.

Offline [SC] - King Kong

  • Members
  • Posts: 602
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2015, 11:03:16 PM »
And if I wish to operate it on domestic routes in australia the game should let me be. Thats part of the fun

Offline gazzz0x2z

  • Members
  • Posts: 1385
Re: Concorde Noise Limit
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2015, 11:11:51 AM »
And if I wish to operate it on domestic routes in australia the game should let me be. Thats part of the fun

getting the right price will be the toughest - and funniest - part, I guess.

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.