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Author Topic: Airplane Turnaround Times  (Read 3841 times)

Offline Starfury483

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Airplane Turnaround Times
« on: July 13, 2013, 02:17:13 AM »
How does the game get the turn around times? For example a Boeing 757-200 lists a minimum turnaround time as 70 minutes.  According to a study and test by Boeing the turn around time for this plane is 52.2 minutes, but the game makes it 70. Now if you reduce the minimum turn around time to 52.5 minutes (other airline games for example -forbidden due advertising terms-) use 45 minutes as a minimum you would be able to have two transcontinental flights on this plane per day.  Most of the major US Airlines use their 757-200's on two round trip flights a day. So where is the turn around time numbers coming from, and is this revised by game designers at any point? (I did read the manual and didn't see where the data is coming from)

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 04:22:27 AM »
This has been discussed here...

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,41687.0.html


Answer is this:

Quote
But the entire turnaround times system is currently based to the assumption that plane gets a "full" treatment (appropriate to the plane size) on every turnaround, and for longhaulers this is a long thing...)
And as said, this will not be changed until the turnaround system is modified at some point to take into account the flight length (ie. short flight => possibly no refuel & light cleaning => shorter turn possible).


And data is taken from assumptions and RL experience from our mighty admin  ;) (Boeing docs seems not acurate...)

Quote
Looked at the 777 doc, and have to mention that they are giving quite optimistic times

Offline Yellowjj

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2013, 04:27:14 AM »
Not only that, I also noticed a A321 which seats 220 in real life according to Airbus and 192 in the game has a turnaround time of 40 minutes. The 757-200 which seats 235 max per Boeing & only seats 189 standard in the game is stuck with a 70 minute turn time. Something is seriously skewed there. Same size aircraft, same class, basically same number of seats. Only difference is the 757 is the longer ranged, better runway performer where-as the A321 has the better fuel burn.  Why the excess amount of time to turn a 757 around? I get that it may have been done to simplify the A32X fleet as one, but its unrealistic. Turn time IMHO should be based on the amount of seats in a aircraft. Fair is Fair.

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2013, 04:42:52 AM »
A321 which seats 220 in real life according to Airbus and 192 in the game

It also seats 220 in AWS... always look at the "max capacity" instead of "factory default seating"... not the same...

Turn time IMHO should be based on the amount of seats in a aircraft.

turn times should be based on many things... one of them of course is boarding and deboarding pax, but cleaning, refueling, etc are also important...


But yes, turn around times ingame are not balanced (to my taste), especially because there's a fixed % added to every turn around in order to reach the 1%delay chance.


As I sayed, if there's a delay because one passenger remembered to buy that essential stuff at the free shop in the last moment, then you'll have a fixed 20' delay over the turn around, no matter if it's a 30'turn Q400 or a 120'turn 747... same delay for both... not what happens in AWS.

Offline Yellowjj

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2013, 05:24:43 AM »
It also seats 220 in AWS... always look at the "max capacity" instead of "factory default seating"... not the same...


I know. I simply used the standard config to make the point that by default, the 757 seats 3 persons less than the A321.


Quote

turn times should be based on many things... one of them of course is boarding and deboarding pax, but cleaning, refueling, etc are also important...


But yes, turn around times ingame are not balanced (to my taste), especially because there's a fixed % added to every turn around in order to reach the 1%delay chance.


I know and agree. However for aircraft of the same 'class' and seats, I feel should be equal in the game. Realistically the 757 should be set at 40 minutes and not 70. Even though their trying to keep the fleet groups simplified with the a321 time, its just such a oddity.

exchlbg

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2013, 02:13:43 PM »
Turnaround in game is a simplified average.Turn-arounds in RL vary a lot because of different situation like flight length or kind of service that has to be done.
You are free to take shorter turn-arounds and risking a higher percentage of possible delays.Delay reason "short turn-around" stands for a lot of reasons  that occur while aircraft is turning.
Are more differentiated model is in planning stages when I remember correctly.
Aircraft capacities are questioned in a steady interval. Try searching for this topic in archived forums.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 02:20:33 PM by exchlbg »

Online Sami

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2013, 02:29:01 PM »
I know and agree. However for aircraft of the same 'class' and seats, I feel should be equal in the game. Realistically the 757 should be set at 40 minutes and not 70. Even though their trying to keep the fleet groups simplified with the a321 time, its just such a oddity.

Turnaround times are fleet group specific.

A318 is most certainly not in the same size class as B757-300 to take the extreme example.

L1011fan

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2013, 04:50:11 AM »
I use turn around times that will result in no more than 4.4% possibility of delay. Just play it.

SuriProf4

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2013, 01:50:45 PM »
as a general question to this question:

(take this as just a very basic example) - one route between A and B using an aircraft X.

lets say i use the minimum turnaround time for aircraft X. however, if i hire more staff necessary for handling that plane (5 additional ground staff, 3 additional pax service staff, etc), would the delay/cancelation % decrease?

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2013, 02:18:12 PM »
no.

Offline tcrlaf

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 06:05:03 AM »
 "Realistically the 757 should be set at 40 minutes and not 70."

Uh....
Yeah....
You've never actually worked a ramp, eh? Turning a 757 in 70 minutes would be tough, with a full load. 90 Minutes is much more realistic, especially if you plan on cleaning, watering, emptying the lavs, and catering it. Considering 400 bags avg. on/off a 40 minute turn would be quite the feat.

Offline Yellowjj

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 03:24:14 PM »
"Realistically the 757 should be set at 40 minutes and not 70."

Uh....
Yeah....
You've never actually worked a ramp, eh? Turning a 757 in 70 minutes would be tough, with a full load. 90 Minutes is much more realistic, especially if you plan on cleaning, watering, emptying the lavs, and catering it. Considering 400 bags avg. on/off a 40 minute turn would be quite the feat.

Ramp..no. Inside the terminal..Yes.   757's here are routinely turned in 30 mins. Granted this is a outstation, a international one, but still a outstation, so it doesn't get the full red carpet treatment compared to a base. Distance flown should be hopefully taken into account in regards to turnaround time in the future. a 8 hour trip will of course be turned longer than a 2 hour one.

Offline sergio

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 04:00:33 PM »
i am usin 737-400 (not in production any more :( )

turnaround 110 minutes, which makes it less than 1% probability of delay. time to lift off also 100 minutes later after arrival to homeport.

however in delays it makes over 40% of delays. i can figure out why!

wbrgds

amendment: now reduced to 30%, however a little too much for 1% probability.

also - uncongested airport, 51% delay due to traffic. not even wheather! (i am on the south shore of North Sea)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 04:03:50 PM by sergio »

exchlbg

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2013, 11:23:21 PM »
This is only an actual observation, you have to watch overall delays during a year. Sometimes its just bad luck that hits you, but with a tighter turn-around you would have seen even more delays than that. There will be months where this flight has no delays at all.
Turn-around times here are an average of all kind of turn-arounds aircrafts may have anywhere in the world with any kind of traffic or schedule or service pattern. Sami plans to vary turn-arounds according to flight-times in the future, as I understood it.
He personally doesnt expect you to plan them always to reach 1%(one of his seldom comments), and I just experimented with that and did just fine having them at 8,5 %.OK, quite a lot delays at winter time, a little hit on CI,but you can make it up with a bit more marketing.
Im not a very frequent flyer, but leaving gate just on the minute is something I seldom saw in RL,  you are lucky if you leave half an hour later.Most of the times you still reach your destination on time, though.Delays in-game dont have any consequences on your continuing schedule, so their negative sides are marginal, compared to real life.
Everybody has to work with these numbers here, everybody is free to use them at whatever risk of delay.And trying to turn a bird in record time regularly will see a lot of delays in RL, too.
Sami also designed turn-arounds with the old-fashioned full service airlines in mind, where you really have catering and cleaning (by third party, not by flight attendants), with occasional difficult express cargo and luxury luggage to handle. Modern times slave-driven tin-cans with cattle on wooden seats still wait to be modeled.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 11:25:35 PM by exchlbg »

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2013, 03:28:12 AM »
i am usin 737-400 (not in production any more :( )

turnaround 110 minutes, which makes it less than 1% probability of delay. time to lift off also 100 minutes later after arrival to homeport.

however in delays it makes over 40% of delays. i can figure out why!

wbrgds

amendment: now reduced to 30%, however a little too much for 1% probability.

also - uncongested airport, 51% delay due to traffic. not even wheather! (i am on the south shore of North Sea)

If you only have 1 plane, a little bit of bad luck can result in a high percentage of delays. If you have 100 planes, a little bit of bad luck on 1 plane makes little overall difference.

More importantly, how many of those delays are actually due to scheduling? And how many are due to weather, airport traffic, technical issues, staffing issues?

Offline sergio

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 01:39:11 PM »
i had acf at the time of complaining. now situation improved. technical - because i hired flying scrap.
and wheather - looks like sami sent a virtual cyclone ))))

as per you advise i will use delay probability 8,5%, not 1%, in ordr to save time in schedule.

Offline sergio

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2013, 12:48:49 PM »
i am happy! delays - 69% due to weather, cancellation, 71% due to weather! the best statistics.  8)

Offline 11Air

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2013, 08:42:48 AM »
I haven't read every post above but -
Please can we have the option to "Fuel to Max and Full Clean" as an option at each landing. Small a/c (mini and feeder) are particularly likely to Depart home base with fuel for the return trip when they are operating below half their working range.
I do like that you built in reduced payload on the flight planning. Nice touch.

Offline tcrlaf

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2013, 06:45:59 AM »
I haven't read every post above but -
Please can we have the option to "Fuel to Max and Full Clean" as an option at each landing. Small a/c (mini and feeder) are particularly likely to Depart home base with fuel for the return trip when they are operating below half their working range.
I do like that you built in reduced payload on the flight planning. Nice touch.

Ferrying fuel costs BIG money, and it is NEVER done in the U.S., unless it's a breakdown, etc. It is far cheaper to pay a flow-through fee at an outstation, or even Zero contract rates, than it is to ferry fuel around the system. I know it is done in Africa (Due to unreliable fuel purity, but NEVER in the US.

Offline 11Air

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Re: Airplane Turnaround Times
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 11:57:21 AM »
Same fuel situation in Europe. One leading carrier recently got adverse publicity for being 'too close' on fuel when weather caused slow landing rates which in turn caused stacking of aircraft waiting to land. It's a balance for the airlines and some are keener than others on saving every last penny but then get caught with diverts called on low fuel basis. Pay a low fare and it's what might happen to you!
It was not unusual for pilots to have to use their own finances to pay cash for fuel at a non-company divert airport, even Pax have had to assist at times. I hope that doesn't apply any more with better v.cash via internet.
Certainly waste tanks are sized for range and capacity, so short flights (half the range) 'could' be serviced at Base only. Thorough clean also I suppose where the Cabin Crew usually do a litter gather.
For the Game then one day we might have three levels of ground crew giving fast, medium or relaxed refuelling but that's got to be in the future. Similar would apply to out fields where you might choose the level of service you want and pay accordingly. That's when you could offer the same service to visiting airlines. Staff numbers, salaries and equipment costs would reflect the speed you request of course.
What we don't have at the moment is fee's per minute for aircraft on the ground which most airports charge, forcing the customer airlines to 'chose' between the risk of delays/cancellations and cost reductions in time on ground.
Developing the Airport side of things is best left for now but is no doubt pencilled in on Sami's wish list.
As an aside Gatwick is trying very hard to get Gate Occupation times down (to get more aircraft through of course) 15minutes? Can't remember.

 

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