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Author Topic: JK Airlines (LHR) fined  (Read 2082 times)

Offline SAC

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2013, 06:59:45 PM »
But seriously, nobody will ever convience me that in such cases there is not a violation of the speciific rules by the big airlines
Nobody admits it but that's the reality. This is the big issue for me

Would evidence convince you, because by "big" airlines and by being based at LHR I take it you mean me, and I take serious offense at such an accusation.  As I have have just said in my reply to your very childish PM - I have played 100% legally. Sami can look at these things, and has warned several times that he would be looking very closely at LHR and acting if he spots violations, so you would have to be really really stupid to cheat !  Still don't believe me ?  ask Sami to check, but you will be wasting his valuable time.  It is a shame because you had a nice airline going on and it was well worth taking the hit and just getting on with it !

I mean to make no enemies so please stop sending me PM's and avoid making yourself look daft in public either.

Rgds
Steve
...it's not over until I say it's over

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2013, 08:20:22 PM »
I guess the only way to do this to be 100% compliant on the long routes is to create 2 sets, one with 3 and another with 4 flights to the proper destination, then delete both and create 7 individual flights.

Actually that doesn't even work because of the Sunday/Monday conflict on the 4-day set.
So you need to make a minimum of 3 routes.

Basically, the system is broke.
That doesn't automatically justify cheating (breaking the rules), of course. But if the system is such that players who don't normally cheat feel pressured to cheat on route-opening (i.e., if this is the only rule they ever break) that is a strong indication that the system is also broken and needs to be fixed. Fining or banning people for trying to work around the system may be legally/technically justified, but it would be more productive to actually address the root of the problem that people are trying to work around.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 08:24:01 PM »
Actually that doesn't even work because of the Sunday/Monday conflict on the 4-day set.
So you need to make a minimum of 3 routes.

Good point.  You have to do 3+3+1

samomuransky

  • Former member
Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 08:28:54 PM »
Fining or banning people for trying to work around the system may be legally/technically justified, but it would be more productive to actually address the root of the problem that people are trying to work around.

System is fine, solution is simple: Do NOT base your airline at LHR. It's that simple. If you choose LHR, you choose everything that comes with that - just as at other airports have their own restrictions as well as advantages.

Increasing number of slots at the airport - this makes sense and I would like to see such feature to such extent. But not unlimited expansion until everyone is satisfied (this would be against whole concept of slots). That would mean that even more people would base on big airports and you would have like 25 airlines at LHR. Big airports got huge advantage of having large demand - this must be balanced by certain disadvantages, to encourage players to choose other airports too.

Offline Tiberius

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2013, 09:15:24 PM »
What system is broken?  I'm having a hard time understanding the complaint and follow up discussion.

Is this a discussion about:
A) too little slots at a top 5 airport?
B) someone appearing out of compliance because of how they schedule their routes, and how routes are created?
C) or something else?

A: There are plenty of slots at LHR and other major airports, they are just highly prized, and its very competitive.
B: If you don't have the time, or don't have the equipment to fly the route, you probably shouldn't try and schedule 15 planes all at once at airports with few slots anyway! People will notice!

Creating routes seems pretty easy, and rarely do I lose slots while doing so.  I lose slots to that less often than I lose used planes while browsing for equipment.

Practice creating a 7-day schedule will mean it takes less than a minute to purchase all the slots, although scheduling can still be a slow process if you don't have the right number of aircraft to do it.    I can't speak to routes that fly more than 1 day a week (3+3+1 and other strategies) because I don't have practice doing that.

Offline Infinity

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 09:25:16 PM »
Practice creating a 7-day schedule will mean it takes less than a minute to purchase all the slots,

A minute is plenty when it takes 90 seconds for all slots to be gone.

Offline Tiberius

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2013, 10:12:58 PM »
But aren't the chances just as good that the other guy will lose slots to me? Doesn't it take him a minute or less to make a route same as me?  In all the games I've played with flights to Tokyo, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Shanghai, Osaka, Hong Kong and other airports that frequently have very limited slots and lots of competition I've probably only lost slots that way once or twice.  Its no different in smaller airports when there are no 5-6, or 6-7 am slots because most people are starting their short haul flights on smaller equipment that can't fly overnight profitably.  You exercise patience, choose a different route, or choose a different flight schedule...and have a chance of losing that coveted Monday 500 slot while you check things out.

Offline jmaildom

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2013, 10:31:58 PM »
Would evidence convince you, because by "big" airlines and by being based at LHR I take it you mean me, and I take serious offense at such an accusation.  As I have have just said in my reply to your very childish PM - I have played 100% legally. Sami can look at these things, and has warned several times that he would be looking very closely at LHR and acting if he spots violations, so you would have to be really really stupid to cheat !  Still don't believe me ?  ask Sami to check, but you will be wasting his valuable time.  It is a shame because you had a nice airline going on and it was well worth taking the hit and just getting on with it !

I mean to make no enemies so please stop sending me PM's and avoid making yourself look daft in public either.

Rgds
Steve

I don't try to find evidence but again that's not the point.
The only fact I know is that 3 times previously all the slots were gone in a matter of few minutes. I was grabbing one here and there (that's the game, no complain). I noticed that an airline grabbed the majority  of slots (at both 3 times). This is a fact. So one airline reached out some 24% of the slots and the second was 8% and the third 3,5 %. This is a fact also

Also a fact is that when I did what I did (grabbing the slots) it was done through my iphone so didn't have the flexibility to be compliant. (my fault anyway, not excuse and worked out the system and being penalized for that)
Then I deleted all the routes and was waiting to go to my laptop after 1 -2 hours to plan the routes accdordingly since i had some 15 planes sitting with no routes (and having also other 5 in order for delivery in due time).
So fact is that when I noticed the release of slots there were plenty of them, the big majority

It took me not more than 4 minutes via iphone to create some 36-37 7 slot sets.
I stopped when I found out that all the slots were gone
So it seems I grabbed a bit more than half of the released slot sets (there were some 68 sets released)
In these 4-5 minutes all the slots were gone. I went from 8,75 to some 13,75% of the slots in LHR. The first airline had still some 24, something by grabbing some slot sets

In reality before the release were 493 slot sets (7 days) in a 17 hour allocation. First airline had some 110 sets or a 22.7 percentage
After the today's release (where from 29 slots/hour we went to 33) the first airline had some 24,2% slots thus some 135 in total. So that means that I grabbed 38 slot sets, the first airline grabbed some 25?


For this incident (similar  in the previous releases when I didn't suceed to take some slots) and talking personally ,  clearly there is no normal way of doing this in such a short period of time( I might be wrong ofcourse but this is my perception). Just dont' believe it. There is no time to do this. But  who cares anyway.
Since I (as admitted) violated the rules and being also obvious in my mind that this must be something that happens in similar occasions (wrong impression?) .  I just felt the need to stop the fun and drop the game(who cares at the end...). Fullstop and period.


Steve, it's nothing personal at you and your airline
Also fact is that you send me first a PM before you notify sami. I just felt the need to reply to this first PM since it was in a style " I got you". Notifying sami should be enough.
In total I have 3 PMs from you and I have replied to 2 of them. Then I was blocked by you.
No reason to continue this in public. Fullstop.
Enjoy the game
the majority of the players don't come to this situation since it seems it's specific issue for few airports.  it's a minor issue
And also the majority of people here just want to enjoy their game and not reading  our things.


So , please move on








Offline SAC

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2013, 11:49:44 PM »
No probs and fair enough Teamwork, I can understand why and what causes this.  

I repeat you had a good airline and were a worthy opponent...you should not of given up.  

It is a shame that the system causes players to do such things, but I do it the right way by opening real routes so I expect others to do the same other wise it is not fair.  

I must assure you again though that I DID NOT do what you did to get the slots...I really did open to different destinations with suitable spacing and with a/c I already had.  

I managed this by

A) researching where to fly to and what times would be suitable before slot drops happened
B) being bloody quick at doing it when a slot drop did happen  
C) Always having $60m cash so I could afford nearly all slots that may drop
D) Having at least 12 B727's lined up doing nothing just waiting for action and finally...
E) spending TOO much time here waiting for slots

You were just unfortunate to miss the first 3 drops...it only takes me a few mins to legally wipe out 2 slots per hour !  The logistics I had in place made that easy.

LHR takes lots of effort and is very frustrating I am sure you'll agree and I urge others to consider this before opening there.  It really is edge of your seat stuff for hours every day if you want to make it and if you don't offer that level of commitment then it is utterly pointless even thinking about it.

Anyway...put this behind you teamwork and open a new airline and give someone else the worry you gave me (not an Elite airline please  ;D )
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:52:35 PM by SAC »
...it's not over until I say it's over

Offline NorgeFly

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2013, 11:56:58 PM »
Have to agree with SAC here, it is possible with forward planning to clean up quickly and legally if you happen to be online at the right time.

I did it in Haneda a couple of years ago, having a dozen or more A300s lined up with nothing to do, the schedules I wanted them to fly written on sheets of paper, poised for the moment slots would be released or someone to close a route or of bust.

Obviously I had far too much time on my hands, but it worked, and by the end of the game I pretty much had all of Haneda to myself, at which point it got really boring!  :-\

Offline SAC

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2013, 12:05:43 AM »
I was nowhere near as scientific as noting down times, that is far too professional for me   :laugh:   I did though mentally note say 1000 unserved demand to Aberdeen for instance, and how long does is take to open 2 x sets of 3 per day...30 seconds if your quick and good at working out times...hey presto 42 slots banked in 30 seconds.  3 mins of that and you can easily, and more importantly legally, capture 250 slots. It is all about preparation.  I must be good at it though...good enough and fast enough for people to think as was up to something  :laugh:  I am afraid it is nothing more than far too many years practice  ::)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 12:08:01 AM by SAC »
...it's not over until I say it's over

Offline NorgeFly

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2013, 12:39:59 AM »
Clearly I've exposed myself to be a huge geek  :-[




As if there was any doubt anyway ;)

Offline Seattle

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2013, 12:42:01 AM »
Clearly I've exposed myself to be a huge geek  :-[




As if there was any doubt anyway ;)

Lol, you're playing AWS, it's a given  ;)
Founder of the Star Alliance!

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: JK Airlines (LHR) fined
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2013, 02:06:29 AM »
the suggestion in another thread of tying LH more closely to CI would help : if the mad dash for slots to exploit the LH loophole were constrained by the need to build CI first, we would see a more natural growth : SH/domestic routes would have to be filled first, to grow CI and to build capital for the step-up to LH : this would also mean the player could convert SH/Domestic routes later to LH and utilise the slots released, but then have to re-deploy/dispose of the aircraft previously used. The benefit is, I suppose, the player can either hold out for new slots, or cannabalise existing routes to fill the new 7-day schedules, or mix and match : but they would have been used long-term on SH/ domestic first. This would go some way towards removing the impetus to grab them all anyhow, anyway, then sort them out later.

Ok, Feature Request done:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,46457.0.html

 

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