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Author Topic: Is it legal?  (Read 2114 times)

Online Emaw Jones

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Is it legal?
« on: March 10, 2013, 12:12:53 AM »
For someone to buy a bunch of slots and not use them?

Just curious.


Offline alexgv1

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2013, 12:20:37 AM »
Categorically illegal. Could you expand the context?
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Online Emaw Jones

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 02:03:24 AM »
Categorically illegal. Could you expand the context?

Absolutely,
Modern Times #8, my base is Strasbourg France, an airline that has no flights into the base owns 16% of the gates.

To Clairify:
Infinity Airlines player:Saftfrucht has 63 gates at LFST representing 15.79% of available gates and not a single flight on the route. Paris CDG / LFST / Paris CDG.

I am new at this, not sure even how I would go about reporting it.  Wasn't even sure it was legal or not.

regards,


« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 02:12:27 AM by Emaw Jones »

Offline apenfold

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2013, 02:11:03 AM »
Hi,

If he is 'hoarding slots' with no capability to fly them then yes this is illegal. However looking at infinity who is based at LFPG (Paris CDG) he has two A320 aircraft on order but on his route timetables no 'route commencing on xx/xx/xx' flights.

This suggests to me that he has the aircraft on order to fly the route but has not scheduled them to his aircraft (which is perfectly legal - and is a way of avoiding unnecessary staffing costs). If however he has had these slots for quite some time and not used them then that is illegal. The game does have means of countering this, as if slots are not used for a certain period then they are taken away from you and put back into the public pool.

Hope this helps,

Online Emaw Jones

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2013, 02:14:18 AM »
It helps immensely, thank you for looking at it for me.

He has had them for awhile, but your explination goes along way in telling me what I am looking at.

Regards,

Offline apenfold

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2013, 02:22:20 AM »
No worries, glad to be of help!

Best of luck to you!

Online Emaw Jones

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 02:34:23 AM »
Looking at the route, It does suggest otherwise, 2 x A320 on a route with 90 pax and holding 15.79% of available gates seems out of proportion to needs.  Again, being new to looking at the simulation in this regard, I might be missing something.

Offline apenfold

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 02:47:58 AM »
That is something I didn't look at, 9 flights per day does seem a little excessive, especially given his fleet. It might be worth reporting for investigation as slots at Paris CDG are now completely gone and 63 empty slots to Strasbourg means 63 empty slots at LFPG on a route that is never going to be flown...

Online Emaw Jones

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2013, 03:39:26 AM »
That is something I didn't look at, 9 flights per day does seem a little excessive, especially given his fleet. It might be worth reporting for investigation as slots at Paris CDG are now completely gone and 63 empty slots to Strasbourg means 63 empty slots at LFPG on a route that is never going to be flown...


Who and how do I report it?


Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 06:28:09 AM »
Absolutely,
Modern Times #8, my base is Strasbourg France, an airline that has no flights into the base owns 16% of the gates.

To Clairify:
Infinity Airlines player:Saftfrucht has 63 gates at LFST representing 15.79% of available gates and not a single flight on the route. Paris CDG / LFST / Paris CDG.

I am new at this, not sure even how I would go about reporting it.  Wasn't even sure it was legal or not.

regards,

I think I have a pretty good idea of what happened.  Player wanted to grab slots at CDG quickly, when they became available (they are very valuable).  He did so by creating routes to Strassbourg.  Then he canceled the routes, with intention of keeping CDG slots.

The problem is that you can's select that you want to keep only one set of slots and not the other.  (See a Feature Request on this subject).

So the CDG player ended up with a bunch of orphan Strasbourg slots in his possession.  I don't think it was intentional.  The system clears these orphan slots that were never flown very quickly (1 month I believe).  So you will see your slots back within 1 game day...

As far as grabbing slots, the way Infinity Airlines did it, it is really the only way to assure of getting a complete set if you are doing 7 day LH schedule.  He could lose the slots half way through creating a single LH route (with 7 individual slots).  I don't see any other way of dong it...

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 06:56:26 AM »
I think I have a pretty good idea of what happened.  Player wanted to grab slots at CDG quickly, when they became available (they are very valuable).  He did so by creating routes to Strassbourg.  Then he canceled the routes, with intention of keeping CDG slots.

The problem is that you can's select that you want to keep only one set of slots and not the other.  (See a Feature Request on this subject).

So the CDG player ended up with a bunch of orphan Strasbourg slots in his possession.  I don't think it was intentional.  The system clears these orphan slots that were never flown very quickly (1 month I believe).  So you will see your slots back within 1 game day...

As far as grabbing slots, the way Infinity Airlines did it, it is really the only way to assure of getting a complete set if you are doing 7 day LH schedule.  He could lose the slots half way through creating a single LH route (with 7 individual slots).  I don't see any other way of dong it...

This brings to mind an old feature request, the ability to create 7 individual flights with 1 click for 7 day scheduling purposes. Per the rules, this activity is strictly forbidden (creating routes with no intention of flying them to hold the slots) and carries the same punishment as, say, grabbing 200 slots from a slot release and not immediately having the planes to fly them. The ability to create 7 flights with 1 click would completley alleviate this problem.
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

brique

  • Former member
Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 08:50:33 AM »
The rules are quite clear on the subject of creating 'dummy' or 'placeholder' routes to acquire a large number of slots quickly.


http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/General/Rules/#Competition

'In summary, airline is not allowed to create "placeholder" routes to obtain slots to use them later or to restrict competing airlines. Any routes created (and slots obtained) must be made only for the purpose of actually flying them. Any new routes created (and slots) must be put to use within one month (game time) from the time they were created - keeping the slots allocated and inactive any longer is considered a rule violation, and is subject to a fine at slot restricted airports (where slots are almost or fully used).'


Offline Infinity

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 09:56:46 AM »
I do not restrict anyone and I use the slots. I have no routes currently unscheduled and I do not oversupply any route. When I was rearranging my long haul schedule to 7-day-scheduling yesterday, I used Strasbourg to block the slots in Paris so I would not lose one of a set and screw up the scheduling again, as long hauls over a certain range cannot be created as a daily route under a single flight number.
I closed the routes to Strasbourg again quite soon, as I progressed to reschedule. I however did not release the slots as I did this (as releasing them releases both the destination and origin slots, while I needed the latter). The slots will only be returned to the pool after the normal expiration time.
I am sorry if this caused any inconvenience.

The problem is that you can's select that you want to keep only one set of slots and not the other.  (See a Feature Request on this subject).

So the CDG player ended up with a bunch of orphan Strasbourg slots in his possession.  I don't think it was intentional.  The system clears these orphan slots that were never flown very quickly (1 month I believe).  So you will see your slots back within 1 game day...


This is exactly what happened. I will select an airport with no airline based there next time, I did not take this into account and was rather inconsiderate about it, for which I apologize.

'In summary, airline is not allowed to create "placeholder" routes to obtain slots to use them later or to restrict competing airlines.



This is correct. As I did neither, I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my side. I either rearranged and rescheduled immediately or did actually fly the routes I created.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 10:27:40 AM by saftfrucht »

Offline apenfold

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 12:03:25 PM »
Hi saftfrucht

Well done for spotting and replying, and apologies if any offence has been caused. There are so many different permutations of slot possibilities in this game its almost inevitable to draw the wrong conclusion. I certainly can entirely see what has happened here and no there is nothing illegal going on :-)

Best of luck!

Online Emaw Jones

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 04:16:04 AM »


This is exactly what happened. I will select an airport with no airline based there next time, I did not take this into account and was rather inconsiderate about it, for which I apologize.


Outstanding!!  Thank you very much to all that posted and helped me decipher the situation, and a special thanks to saftrucht for his participation in the conversation.  No need to apologize and I certainly wish you well on your long haul flights.

Regards to all,

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2013, 07:05:59 AM »
This is correct. As I did neither, I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my side. I either rearranged and rescheduled immediately or did actually fly the routes I created.

Incorrect statement as you did offend...you created placeholder routes to obtain the slots before any other player had the chance to get those slots.


The way that the slots were obtained is still illegal and is exactly why the rule was put in place, and in my opinion the player should receive a penalty.

The player has grabbed the A end slots ASAP with the intent to stop others getting them before him (this is clearly what he stated) and has used B end slots (selected as they are either nil or min cost to him) with no intention of actually flying the A to B route.

A clear violation of the rules with one purpose in mind......to be the first to the scarce A end slots.

If you can't 'beat another player' in setting up a 7 day schedule and only manage to get 3 out of the 7 days before another player gets the slots...bad luck...that is the game....why should the other player be blocked from playing his game?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 07:10:04 AM by Kadachiman »

Offline Troxartas86

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2013, 11:29:21 AM »
I think I agree here. What this guy did should be half legal and half illegal. He intended to use the slots at his HQ but had no intention of using the slots at the minor airport where he purchased dummy slots. Whether or not anyone would ever base at the dummy airport should be of no consequence, those were slots never intended to be used.

If this is not specifically illegal under the current interpretation of the rules it ought to be.

I've heard of small airports suing airlines that promise to open routes and then pull out after just a few weeks. In effect, a player who does this sort of thing is in fact defrauding the minor airport in which he creates dummy routes.

ReedME

  • Former member
Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2013, 03:06:29 PM »
From what I'm reading here, and forgive me if I'm wrong.

He operated a route to Strasbourg then planned to readjust his schedule. He closed the route, however did not release the slots immediately. HE DID release the slots however after normal expiration time. No problems.

I don't see anything illegal here. He is using the slots and why should he have to pay twice for slots just because he's rescheduling his flights?

Offline NorgeFly

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2013, 03:14:44 PM »
Clear violation, whatever the reason or excuses given.

Sami just fined and airline at LHR $50m for the same thing (grabbing slots to rearrange later).




Offline Infinity

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Re: Is it legal?
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2013, 03:47:52 PM »
Sorry, but that was something entirely different. He grabbed a ton of slots for chance, I grabbed only carefully selected slots I was sure to reutilize immediately. I did not block an airline in CDG that way. I planned the 7-day schedule on paper and noted which times I would need, then proceeded to do this when slots got released.
There is no other way to do this the way the system works now.

 

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