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Author Topic: Aainst the rules?  (Read 2128 times)

Offline schlaf

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Aainst the rules?
« on: March 02, 2013, 12:09:14 AM »
Is it against the rules to already now open routes that u cant use before you get more aircrafts?



Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2013, 12:31:19 AM »
Is it against the rules to already now open routes that u cant use before you get more aircrafts?


I think if it is an honest mistake, that's ok.  If you grab 10s or 100s, that would be against the rules...

exchlbg

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 12:34:40 AM »
It is against the rules, if you won´t fly them within one month. You will loose those slots anyway, but it is unfair to block them for that time.

Offline Sami

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 10:43:35 AM »
Yes. http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/General/Rules/#Competition

For any reason, you are not allowed to create routes that you cannot fly. (ie. future routes to which you have no planes available (yet?).

As usual LHR slots will be closely monitored. And as you can read from the changelog, also some pricing changes for LHR slots (individual exception) were made, as that is the only airport that is always at full capacity.

Offline SAC

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 10:49:55 AM »
Slots at LHR are over $1m per set already. I am trying basing at LHR for the first time in MT8, but begining to think it was a mistake as the odds are so heavily stacked against airlines based there. I'll stick with it as I don't give up, but combined with slot availability, or lack of it, is LHR now a no go area to base at...I'll soon find out !
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 10:55:15 AM by SAC »
...it's not over until I say it's over

brique

  • Former member
Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2013, 10:58:06 AM »
I work on the '2 week' rule : open up new routes 2 weeks before the aircraft arrives (then schedule them onto the aircraft a day or so before it arrives so it gets to work immediately and you also avoid 2 weeks of wages) and you wont fall foul of the rules, your slots will be secure and no heavily armed reindeer will storm your HQ and subject you to unspeakable torments...

Offline Sami

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 01:42:31 PM »
I would like to remind of the slot rules, basically as follows:

If you have no aircraft on order and you still open routes to a highly slot restricted airport as LHR, it basically means you are not able to use the routes/slots. And this is a rule violation and in LHR's case it leads to immediate closure of the routes/removal of slots. Any "juggling" of the routes to preserve the slots is also forbidden.

For now slots violating these rules have been closed from a bunch of airlines. If it continues, sizable penalties will be issued.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 01:44:56 PM by sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 03:10:42 PM »
I would like to remind of the slot rules, basically as follows:

If you have no aircraft on order and you still open routes to a highly slot restricted airport as LHR, it basically means you are not able to use the routes/slots. And this is a rule violation and in LHR's case it leads to immediate closure of the routes/removal of slots. Any "juggling" of the routes to preserve the slots is also forbidden.

For now slots violating these rules have been closed from a bunch of airlines. If it continues, sizable penalties will be issued.

There is a reason why there is a stampede to LHR.  It is because there is a massive LH "exploit", that allows players to fly LH (to LHR and a few others), and with combination of cheap LH aircraft (DC-10), cheap fuel, and a screwy pax allocation, one can achieve very high LFs right from the start, and 2x to 5x profits compared to best that can be achieved flying SH.

If the pax allocation worked in a way that a player flying his first a/c lh to LH to LHR, would automatically bankrupt (as he should), you would not have to spend any time monitoring LHR.

The reason a player should BK flying LH as a first route is because LH should be CI dependent, especially premium demand.  LF should depend of CI * RI for LH flying.  Instead, the player isinstantly rewarded with very high LFs on Y and premium seats.

Simething has changed with the new pax allocation that made the small opening for the LH exploit to the dam bursting wide opend, that everybody can do it, it is nearly foolproof.  It changes the balance of the game and not for the better.

The goal of many of the changes is to slow down the initial rush.  This one completely escaped and got a lot worse.  If you hae a starting capital of 10 mil, and within 3 months, you can make 5 mil per week profit, using this exploit, something is wrong.

I am not accusing players who play this of anything illegal.  It is just how the system works.  This is just a huge hole in the system that should be plugged.

Talentz

  • Former member
Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 08:14:39 PM »
Quote
Simething has changed with the new pax allocation that made the small opening for the LH exploit to the dam bursting wide opend, that everybody can do it, it is nearly foolproof.  It changes the balance of the game and not for the better.


LHR just has far too much demand for it's own good. It's the rule were if you place an aircraft on a huge demand route you would get good LF at the start because demand greatly outweighs supply. I remember the complaining/forum b*tching to make this happen.

It seems common knowledge that at the start, you find the biggest LH route (within 4knm) lease the biggest aircraft you can, yet smaller then the demand calls for. Route and move on.

Shouldn't this have worked against that:
Quote
* For new games the pax demand calculation has now a similar steady growth like the airport slots. The demand on all routes begins small (admin adjustable, but usually around 50% of the true demand) and grows to the real and full game demand within ~12 months (and again the amount of "full demand" depends on game settings). (This is to give less advantage, if any, to the early starters.)

I guess it didn't work? Or player A had no competition on his huge demand route and thus, player A became an instant winner?

What else can be done? We already have most of what you mentioned, given that the route is not a huge one.


Talentz

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 08:44:58 PM »

LHR just has far too much demand for it's own good. It's the rule were if you place an aircraft on a huge demand route you would get good LF at the start because demand greatly outweighs supply. I remember the complaining/forum b*tching to make this happen.

It seems common knowledge that at the start, you find the biggest LH route (within 4knm) lease the biggest aircraft you can, yet smaller then the demand calls for. Route and move on.


Shouldn't this have worked against that:
I guess it didn't work? Or player A had no competition on his huge demand route and thus, player A became an instant winner?

What else can be done? We already have most of what you mentioned, given that the route is not a huge one.

Talentz

There was supposed to be a limitation of an airline with RI=0 seeing only ~20% of the demand to slow things down this down.  I am not sure this works as intended.  From some random reports, it seems that pax allocation was exceeding this in many cases, even while we have this 50% reduced initial demand.

What else can be done?  On a route that is labeled as International Long Haul (you see it on route screen), make the pax allocation greatly depend on CI.  Even more than on RI.  And with CI of 5, you get next to nothing.  You have to build up your CI to get any Y pax, and even higher to get C and F pax.

I don't see any other way to slow this down.  If you can make 4 month lease down payment in 1-2 weeks of flying as a brand new airline with no image, there is something wrong, the system is out of balance.

Some balance was established elsewhere, this is the last huge hole as far as I can tell...

Talentz

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 09:24:11 PM »
I think your only talking about huge demand routes because the system does work on normal routes. When i mean huge routes I would point to DXB-HKG or LHR-JFK. Routes so huge that system is over matched. Ideally, competition should limit the growth and gains however, if theres no competition... then its a day trip all the way to the bank.

I do have a problem with slapping a blanket CI/RI rule on all LH routes because not all are like the above. What specifically can we come up with to address the above problem without effecting the overall LH gameplay?

There are just those routes that are monstrous in nature. This is what we should look at.


Talentz




Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 10:00:52 PM »
I think your only talking about huge demand routes because the system does work on normal routes. When i mean huge routes I would point to DXB-HKG or LHR-JFK. Routes so huge that system is over matched. Ideally, competition should limit the growth and gains however, if theres no competition... then its a day trip all the way to the bank.

I do have a problem with slapping a blanket CI/RI rule on all LH routes because not all are like the above. What specifically can we come up with to address the above problem without effecting the overall LH gameplay?

There are just those routes that are monstrous in nature. This is what we should look at.

The system was tweaked to get things right for SH routes that people normally start with.  The start was made more challenging.  To compensate for that, the new starting capital increased, so that half of the companies don't go under in first 4 months.

But the increased starting capital just added more fuel to the fire on LH.  What was a small hole used by very few when starting capital was low turned into opening a floodgate...

As far as blanket rule on International Long Haul, this would be to make players go through a normal start up process, and maybe after 6 months, with CI of ~30, they would "qualify" for LH, the system would allocate some Y pax, at CI of 50, some C pax, at CI of 70, some F pax.

The things that can't be changed at start of say MT world:
- oil prices have to start low
- there will be availability of cheap DC-10s
- all of the routes are un-served
- serving un-served LH routes at low fuel prices with cheap DC-10s will be extremely profitable

What my proposal would do is it would force all players to go through the slow start-up phase, spend the marketing dollars, earn the CI before they can get into these highly lucrative routes.  The shortcut, bypassing the slow start would be closed.

As far as competition eventually taking care of things, well that's after horse is already out of the barn.  Players using the LH exploit will monopolize all the order queues, and will be twice as tough to unseat.

That is if slots allowed it.  A lot of the players will be sitting behind slot locked airports, so there is no more competition.

Offline jmaildom

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 11:03:11 PM »
There was supposed to be a limitation of an airline with RI=0 seeing only ~20% of the demand to slow things down this down.  I am not sure this works as intended.  From some random reports, it seems that pax allocation was exceeding this in many cases, even while we have this 50% reduced initial demand.
.....................................................

it seems the system works in LH (see the screen shots)
with RI of 8 and 12  the load is some 28-34%

As far as I remember, in previous games,  always LH had some advantages due to high traffic. Can't say if the exploitation became bigger now or then though ( this is  actually the second time I start  in LH )

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 11:31:35 PM »
it seems the system works in LH (see the screen shots)
with RI of 8 and 12  the load is some 28-34%

As far as I remember, in previous games,  always LH had some advantages due to high traffic. Can't say if the exploitation became bigger now or then though ( this is  actually the second time I start  in LH )


There is another airline flying the route, which brings up another potential issue of the pax allocation.

So let's say you are seeing ~20% - 30% of the demand.  And let's say the other guy sees also sees ~20% - 30% of the demand.  The question is are you both competing for the same ~20% - 30% or different subsets?  The answer seems to be the same subset from some observations.  Which may or may not be the right answer.

If it is, your low LFs are because the other guy is taking the 2/3 of that narrowed slice.  If the other guy was not there, you would be printing money with 60% plus LFs, on a route with very low RI, and with very low CI.

Offline jmaildom

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 11:50:17 PM »
There is another airline flying the route, which brings up another potential issue of the pax allocation.

So let's say you are seeing ~20% - 30% of the demand.  And let's say the other guy sees also sees ~20% - 30% of the demand.  The question is are you both competing for the same ~20% - 30% or different subsets?  The answer seems to be the same subset from some observations.  Which may or may not be the right answer.

If it is, your low LFs are because the other guy is taking the 2/3 of that narrowed slice.  If the other guy was not there, you would be printing money with 60% plus LFs, on a route with very low RI, and with very low CI.

will try to test it in a clean route
Don't expect dramatic changes though

I have noticed (in previous cases)  that business and first class are filling up at a much lower pace. ex here first is something between 0-10% which it's normal I believe after some time , Ri of 8 and marketing on route.

Actually I am not sure if there is an exploit or not (will try to test it though  till the time I go bk haha)
let's see



Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 11:53:38 PM »
will try to test it in a clean route
Don't expect dramatic changes though

I have noticed (in previous cases)  that business and first class are filling up at a much lower pace. ex here first is something between 0-10% which it's normal I believe after some time , Ri of 8 and marketing on route.

Actually I am not sure if there is an exploit or not (will try to test it though  till the time I go bk haha)
let's see

The situation is not exactly the same as the first day of the game world when CI is 5.  Now you are probably in low 20s, which contributes something...

ReedME

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 04:11:56 AM »
On note of LHR I noticed that on the first day with my RI at 0 and my CI at 5 all my routes regardless of distance gave me about 10-15% LF depending on whether or not there was competition etc, as my RI grew to 100% I gradually got more of the demand, again as my CI grew the same could be said.

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 07:52:58 AM »
RI grew to 100%

Really? Your RI is already at 100%

Offline Mr.HP

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 09:09:44 AM »
Without marketing, my highest RI is ~50

If he gets 100, he must have put lots of money into marketing

ReedME

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Re: Aainst the rules?
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 04:36:58 PM »
Route image on my Dublin and Heathrow routes are both 100 placed two 40k campaigns on them for the first 4 months

 

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