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Author Topic: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?  (Read 2129 times)

Benny_Ben1989

  • Former member
Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« on: December 16, 2012, 01:36:57 AM »
Hi all,
Im based out of Sydney, so far so good...I think...but with only 7 flights per hour? I cant speak for how busy Sydney was in 1975 as I was born in 1989 lol, so is this a reflection of the times?

I ask because 08-09 has already been fully utilised and the 06-07 isn't too far off full.

Regards,
Ben

Offline Monica

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 02:11:50 AM »
The game world starts with little slots.. it's like that on all airports. But it will grow rapidly.  :)

Benny_Ben1989

  • Former member
Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 03:19:20 AM »
Aaaahh brilliant :) Thank you

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2012, 04:09:58 AM »
How I wish you could take out the 'Daily Double' on what you expect to be the first 2 complaint posts in a new Game World

First - Lack of Slots (Unrealistic is the claim)
Second - Lack of 'suitable aircraft' on the Used Market

Unfortunately it would not be worth betting on though as the odds would be 0.5 to 1

brique

  • Former member
Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 04:18:37 AM »
How I wish you could take out the 'Daily Double' on what you expect to be the first 2 complaint posts in a new Game World

First - Lack of Slots (Unrealistic is the claim)
Second - Lack of 'suitable aircraft' on the Used Market

Unfortunately it would not be worth betting on though as the odds would be 0.5 to 1

I'm not complaining about the lack of slots at all... cant find enough suitable aircraft on the market to use the slots anyway... :(

Offline Troxartas86

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2012, 08:55:27 AM »
I have petitioned Politburo regarding complete lack of slots at Leningrad where we are the sole civil aviation unit. They say my request will be processed within six months. Good news is there are plenty of surplus Tu-134As for requisitioning!

Offline jamier

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2012, 12:42:49 PM »
Its the same everywhere, ive got aircraft sat on the ground waiting for slots.

Offline J-Money25

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2012, 12:37:55 AM »
Hello,

I apologize in advance if this is extremely 'noobish', but I am based in Milano - Linate and I've never played in Europe with this scenario before and was just wondering if the current 6 departures an hour is appropriate for this airport and era. I understand the earlier post on the fact that the game world starts with little slots but it will be a week tomorrow that the game has started and I have seen other airports see their hourly departures go up as well. Like I said if this is normal than I'll shut up but I thought that I'd bring up this fact and point out that Linate is apparently the 16th busiest of the top 40 airports in Europe yet it is dead last in that group with regards to slots.

Thanks,
Jean-Marc

brique

  • Former member
Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2012, 03:59:35 AM »
For various reasons, slot renewal is now a random process : they will grow, but not to any formal timetable. In the past, when the 'timetable' for new slots to appear was known (or worked out) by some, those players could be waiting on cue to grab them as they arrived : now its far more a case of being lucky to be on-line, and looking, at the right time.

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2012, 06:18:25 AM »
Linate has a very low number of slots for its size. The number will go up, but it will always have less than the other big airports.

Offline J-Money25

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2012, 05:49:31 PM »
Thanks for the information Sanabas and brique.

-Jean-Marc

Ricademus

  • Former member
Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 01:07:37 PM »
I find it annoying that these big named players, no names mentioned, take over an airport with so many a/c making it so difficult for the smaller player unable to grow, Heathrow is a prime example, I don't know how people can afford so many planes when we all start with the same amount of money, unless there's some sort of cheating going on.
I think there should be a rule on how many planes one can buy when you're a more experienced player, giving us newer players a chance.

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 02:26:45 PM »
Heathrow is a terrible example. Everybody flies into it, and it's the easiest place in the entire game to have huge profit margins, so if you want to start later in the game, as a smaller airline, there is absolutely no point to doing it at LHR. Same as RL, how many smaller airlines, or low cost airlines, have started up in Europe in the last 20 years? (I have no clue) How many of them started at LHR? (I'm tipping zero.)

If this sounds like me picking on you, I apologise. I'm going to have a quick look at what I can see of your two airlines. I'll just comment, hopefully constructively, on what I see.

In DOTM, you've started in AMS on day one of the game. You've started very slowly, with a pair of small, expensive to run Antonovs, and put them on short routes to the two huge nearby airports. Then you've grabbed 4 more of an entirely different 40 seat turboprop, and tied up a lot of your money in buying a 40 seat, very thirsty small jet. Plus a single jumbo, that by itself is enough to fill the route to Dubai, but competes against two other players offering similar. Again, think about RL. How many airlines run small turboprops out of AMS? Looking at the routes themselves, I can't see a single route that is beyond about 100% supply by a single player. But I see every route you fly having competition from multiple players, resulting in extremely low load factors. Which isn't surprising, because you're in one of the biggest airports in the world, and you're only flying to other big airports. There are empty or undersupplied routes you could be flying, like to Lille, Norwich, Leipzig, Liverpool, Bournemouth. AMS is running low on slots, but they are still available at almost any time of day. You've started in a huge airport, where costs are high and competition is fierce, and you're using small planes that don't generate much revenue, and expanded very slowly. If your aim is to run a domestic, shorthaul airline of turboprops and/or small jets, no worries, you can be very successful doing so. But you need to pick an appropriate airport to do it.

MT, you literally BKed as I was writing this post, so all I can see is you were in Dayton with 4 planes. Which is a much better choice for an airline of small planes.

It's very possible to grow quickly without cheating. By being aggressive, and by picking good routes. You got your two antonovs on day 1, waited a full month before ordering two f27s, then another 2 f27s over the next two months. So 4 months into the game, you had less than 300 seats making you money. On day 1 & 2, I got 2 planes and ordered 3 more. By the time those first two were delivered, I'd ordered two more batches of 3. A mix of 707 & 737. So one month in, I had 11 planes, well over 1000 seats, and more on the way. Which I could do with just the start-up cash. With that many planes, I already had revenue of 3-4 million/week, so at least 500k/week of profit. Which lets me order more planes, which increases profit, and it snowballs from there.

Ricademus

  • Former member
Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2012, 07:05:25 PM »
Ok Heathrow was just off the top of my head, have a look at Bahrain, that is literally taken over by one person with so many aircraft I lost count, and as for giving me a running commentary of what I do, you have totally wasted your time because you have not answered my post in the slightest.

As a small and relatively new player, I feel that the big names on this game should have have their usage limited to a set number of planes, instead of using up all the allocated slots by flooding a destination with countless planes, giving people a other chance to play the game fairly as well, which at the moment it is impossible. 

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2012, 07:57:02 PM »
Ok Heathrow was just off the top of my head, have a look at Bahrain, that is literally taken over by one person with so many aircraft I lost count,

Which gameworld? In MT, it is empty. In DOTM, it has a single, 20 plane airline. Would be easy enough to start there today and grow very large if you wanted to. In BW, the biggest airline there has 31 planes. Again, no worries growing large if you wanted to. I can't see JA or Asia challenge. But easy enough to find other examples in MT, the game has been running for 17 years, so people who have their airport to themselves and want to grow will dominate it. There are plenty of airports in MT where it wil be practically impossible to start and be successful. Beijing, Gatwick, Istanbul, Dublin, they are full. Dublin's one that is filled mostly by a single, 500 plane airline.

Quote
and as for giving me a running commentary of what I do, you have totally wasted your time because you have not answered my post in the slightest.

I have misunderstood the point of your post then. Sorry.

Quote
As a small and relatively new player, I feel that the big names on this game should have have their usage limited to a set number of planes, instead of using up all the allocated slots by flooding a destination with countless planes, giving people a other chance to play the game fairly as well, which at the moment it is impossible.

I disagree. In a new gameworld, everybody starts off on an equal footing. You're a relatively new player, but there's no inherent reason that means you'll run a small airline, unless that's what you want to do. If you want to build a giant airline, dominate an airport, it's completely possible. You could restart right now in DOTM, and in 10 years have a multi-billion dollar CV and 250+ planes. You're just a bit limited in which airports you could do that in, because the game has run for 12 months, and you are at a significant disadvantage if you start in an airport with a 50 plane airline or two already in it. But if you started with that aim on day one, you could do it in your choice of airports. Of course, there's always the possibility you lose out to a direct competitor, and wind up BK. But that keeps the game interesting, and they could just as easily lose out to you, BK and leave you with the airport to yourself.

In a long established gameworld, like MT, airports will fill up. Trying to add restrictions will just slow that down, not stop it. But again, there are always airports available to grow rapidly in. MT has 7 years or so left? You could find a relatively large, relatively empty airport and grow plenty large in 7 years. It'll be impossible in a lot of airports, but very doable in a lot of airports too.

How do you define playing the game fairly?

That you should be able to join any of the existing gameworlds, pick any large airport, and be able to build whichever type of successful airline you want? I don't think that should be the case. Well established airlines will always have a significant advantage in their HQ, especially 5+ years into a game. Running small planes out of very large airports is extremely tough at the best of times, much moreso when there is established competition.

That you should be able to join a new gameworld, and be able to build whichever type of successful airline you want, in whichever airport you want? You can. Really. If that's your aim, make a thread asking for advice, and mention specific goals. There will be people on the forum willing to help, or point you at threads with good info on how to do it.

Which aspect of the game that should be doable do you view as impossible, and in which gameworld?

How would you define a 'big name'? How would you set the restriction? A cap on total planes? A cap on plane acquisitions per year? I think both those things will annoy players, without actually making it easier for others.

Offline ARASKA

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2012, 08:11:02 PM »
Ok Heathrow was just off the top of my head, have a look at Bahrain, that is literally taken over by one person with so many aircraft I lost count, and as for giving me a running commentary of what I do, you have totally wasted your time because you have not answered my post in the slightest.

As a small and relatively new player, I feel that the big names on this game should have have their usage limited to a set number of planes, instead of using up all the allocated slots by flooding a destination with countless planes, giving people a other chance to play the game fairly as well, which at the moment it is impossible.  
If you are talking DOTM, Bahrain is just about the worst example you could find. It is a fairly large airport but it was EMPTY for the first few months of the game world. You say it was taken over but really, there was never competition and anyone could have based there. If you had based there at the start, you could be the airline that "took over" the airport. 

And BTW, Sanabas was trying to help you out so I wouldn't respond like that.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 08:13:05 PM by ARASKA »

brique

  • Former member
Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2012, 08:16:44 PM »
There are, or can be, up to 650 players in a game-world (depends which scenario) : there are maybe 20 major major airports (LHR, JFK, etc) with maybe 40 just below that tier : One player in each or ten, those airports will get filled and the slots will be taken and those not getting any will be unhappy. Much like real life, where half the codeshare/alliance/joint-ventures are driven not by direct financial benefit but by getting proxy access to places like LHR.

Your idea to cap planes for 'big players' is a non-starter for many reasons : define who is a 'big player' prior to a game world starting, for one. Then tell them they are going to be handicapped to stop them playing like all the rest can, but dont. Then ask them to pay the same as the rest to play. If they do, it will just mean some non-'big players' will become the 'big players' in that game-world, so we handicap those for the next game-world and before long, we'll have 100, or 200, 'big-players' we dont allow to play according to the same rules as all the rest.But we still charge them the same price to play : would you accept that for yourself?

I like the 'big players', I learn from them, file away knowledge gained from seeing them at work, reading their posts, hearing their arguments on how the game should develop : it makes me a better player, more aware of elements of the game that, otherwise, I would never have found. I may not always use that knowledge, but its surprising how often it applies even at my lesser level of operation.

I like that the 'big players' keep an awful lot of production lines open, so smaller players like me can get our aircraft too. You may complain about the waiting list, but check out how fast lines close in the Challenges, for those types not useful in such limited formats. 'Big players' recycle their fleets into the market, that's where other smaller outfits can get their birds too.

If you want to be a mega-carrier, running into the majors, or basing there, then you have to operate at that level of know-how, skill, and commitment too : there are no short-cuts, you have to do it and fail, often, before you find the keys to success, same way they did.


Ricademus

  • Former member
Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2012, 09:30:43 PM »
I have to say I can see the points raised and have to agree with you Brique, it would make it impossible to 'police' the larger players, but on the other hand, it is a good argument to the degree that I feel that the smaller the airliner or the newer the player then there should be some sort of concession.

Araska I apologize for my 'tone' I didn't mean anything by it, I'm just getting back into the swing of things after a spell in hospital, I had a stroke, so my head still ain't working properly, hope you understand.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2012, 10:00:54 PM »
I dont think such aspects, giving new players extra 'protection', can really be managed successfully in any game, not without wrecking the long-term balance of it. 'Noob protection' is used in many PVP-type games, to give new players a chance to grow a bit before entering the free-for-all : mostly it fails too, it can never be long enough and the vultures just gather waiting for the 'shields' to fall and start the feeding frenzy. That's why ideas like 'Beginners World' with its easier settings and less difficult environment have a place : somewhere to learn the basics and get a feel for the advanced levels that a 'real' game-world requires. But once into that 'real' game-world, the same rules have to apply to all, then progress is governed by how well you develop as a player.

The real problem is not managing existing players, so much, as managing new player expectations ; AWS is not really a 'sand-box sim', its got competition for the rare resources, like slots and bases, with some players well experienced in maxing their prospects for acquiring them. If it was so simple that any player, on day one, can just set up and be successful in any of the majors, it would be a dull old game by week 3. Basing in majors like LHR should be the most difficult path to follow, its the apex of the game, after all.

Sadly, it doesnt matter how much you explain to some newer players, or even older ones, that basing in a major, or trying to directly compete with an established major-based player, is not the easy path, and will almost inevitably lead to BK unless you learn to play at that level very fast, they will keep doing it and never really learn the lesson of it.

I just dont see that crippling existing high-level players with artificial restrictions of any kind will aid the new player in learning those high-level skills : there will be no need, you'll never really get to use them before the cap comes down on you.

edit/addition : What may be useful, though lots of work for Sami and crew, is game-worlds with different difficulty levels, say one with a difficulty mid-way between BW and a standard game-world, so giving a better progression for new players before entering the harder ones.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 10:05:22 PM by brique »

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Seemingly unrealistic slot availability?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2012, 10:24:00 PM »
You can already select your difficulty level somewhat, simply by choosing your airport.

Your level of competition is partly down to luck. If you pick LHR, AMS, ORD, ATL, NRT, you WILL have highly aggressive, competent competitors. If you pick Bahrain, Brussels, Cairo, you might have an extremely aggressive competitor, or you might have the place more or less to yourself.

But if you pick one of the hundred or more airports big enough to support 50+ planes, but small enough that it won't support a truly huge airline, then the worst case is probably a player or two with the same idea as you. Casablanca, Sana'a, Tel Aviv, Adelaide, Caracas, Warsaw, Alicante, Tashkent, Baku, Port of Spain, Pittsburgh, Palm Beach, there are heaps of choices. And if it turns out your first choice has a competitor, and you really don't want one, then restart in one of the others that is empty. I guarantee there'll be one.

If you want a gameworld to be somewhat easier, with more margin for error, to not feel like you need to be online all the time just so you don't fall behind, then pick a somewhat easier airport.

 

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