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Author Topic: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo  (Read 1840 times)

Offline BOEING717

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Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« on: November 16, 2012, 08:59:14 PM »
i though there was a rule against obvious attacks against an airline. Being the small carrier at SEA I open up daily MD 90 service to GSB and SHV. Both routes have just enough traffic for a single MD-90 per day. Both routes have been unserved since I went bankrupt the year before in MT. Right after I do an airline starts the same routes within 30 minutes of my flights and even runs SHV daily ex Saturday. Very obvious and I guess allowed in this game.

NOW I open up 2 more routes (again very niche less then 150 PAX per day) to CID and ATW and KidCo opens up behind me. The first could have been a coincidence the size of being hit by lightning but this is 100% obvious

Does not make it very fun and I feel KidCo is not playing fair.

Don't get me wrong, this is the best game on the net and I love it but when a large airline can watch a smaller ones move and fly money losing routes just to get rid of competition it is not in the spirit of a game like this. I feel the owner is a class act but when there is no obvious rules against this (and I did PM Sami) I will have to find a different game.

To KidCo, Dearborn is your problem not a small airline that is not even flying on most of your routes and before I went bankrupt I tried to avoid flying against you.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 09:02:43 PM by BOEING717 »

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 09:37:25 PM »
deliberate attacks are against the TOS. 

Offline SAC

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 10:02:36 PM »
Enforcing the anti-targeting rule is impossible lets admit it.  I think it should be scrapped TBH !!  It is not realistic, not properly policeable, and is broken every minute of every day by hundreds of airlines in every game world as this and many more examples prove.   AWS is all about being able to affect other players IMO - infact for me it is a huge chunk of the fun I have here.  If it is sanitized too much then there is little point in AWS being a multi-player game, and may as well be a game where we play alone in an empty environment. It far removes the sim from one that really models the real aviation world where business is cut throat, and airlines regularly target and bankrupt each other.  It is part and parcel of running an airline, just ask Sir Freddie Laker !

I would rather play AI competition that I could BK rather than real players that I cannot have a go at, so to speak   ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 10:12:03 PM by SAC »
...it's not over until I say it's over

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 10:22:47 PM »
To Boeing: Itīs quite obvious Kid Co is going after you.......but !
Why did you open a bunch of routes you only could fill half demand in the first place ? Always fill up your routes, otherwise you attract another player to do so. Most of the routes you now share 50/50, not oversupplying them. Why do you start in such a big airport anyway, if you are looking forward to strong competition by alliance players? There are better places. So itīs a close call. You made mistakes, and someone else a little bit too obvious is taking advantage of them.
To SAC: There are rules for competition clearly staked by Sami and there is no reason at all you start a new discussion about them in general.
This is a close call, may Sami decide if this behaviour is an attac already. I tend to blame the "victim" in this case, his mistakes are too obvious.

Offline SAC

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 10:35:10 PM »
There is no reason to discuss something that clearly isn't working ?  That is not how things get fixed now is it !   You cannot have one rule that says you can supply 200% of demand, and then another rule saying no targeting. Supplying 190% is targeting IMO yet is allowed. The laws overlap and contradict each other, causing this confusion about what is and what is not targeting.
...it's not over until I say it's over

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 10:48:18 PM »
The act of targeting must not always mean breaking the 200%-rule. It just says you should not fill any route by more of double demand with your planes alone. Together you can fill routes to what ever percentage. Targeting is opening routes on top of competitorīs always right after he did, causing both flights making a certain loss, especially if competitor is oversupplying it already and especially if there are other yet unfilled routes available you could win on.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 10:51:20 PM by exchlbg »

Offline SAC

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 10:53:06 PM »
So how long does one have to wait to open a route recently opened by a competitor so it is not classed as targeting ?  A day, a month, 5 years, never...or nobody really knows as the rules are not specific enough maybe ?

It is also not in my airlines interest to let competitors make unchallenged profit, where does the welfare of my airline come into this ?
...it's not over until I say it's over

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 11:23:00 PM »
Competition in the first place is on "first come-first see" -basis, fill your demand with wise means, donīt attract anybody in his wise mind to go on your routes. You must accept newcomers at "your" airport, targeting them away by afore mentioned means is no fair play.

Fair:filling unserved demand (a bit over 100% ), even with competition, is always fair. (KidCo did that in many cases I checked btw)
Unfair: oversupplying route together with newcomer, opening "on top" shortly after him, if there is enough demand elswhere not yet served by anybody.
Just fill up that airport before he can, and he will never grow near your figures.But squeezing weak airlines out of every route they serve by turning those into loss bringers for both of you (or asking an alliance member to do so) is against game rules.
Please try to keep as many people interested in our game as possible.You donīt win anything frustrating everybody off.
Maybe you should explain your moves to "new" contestants before they feel "come crying to Mummy."

Offline SAC

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 11:45:31 PM »
Personally I pay little interest to new start ups as they often kill themselves but I just cannot understand rules that stop you opening a route now with 100% off demand because another airline just opened it, but is OK if you do it a few months later and supply 200% of demand and 40% off ticket prices.

I also struggle with the fact that I play to make my airline worth as much as possible, and other airlines are a threat to that.  It is in my airlines interest to limit that threat, and as a responsible CEO is my job to do that, not just sit back and watch with my hands tied behind my back while a new airline grows and slowly takes my passengers, causing decline in revenue and ultimately profit.  Any CEO that lets that happen isn't doing his job for his airline - all IMO of coarse  ;D

Maybe we should have game worlds running with no restrictions for those of us with the thirst for competition, and others where stricter rules apply so a level of protection is offered.  At the moment we have a mish mash of both which so regularly does cause bad blood...which I agree is not what we really want.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 11:48:38 PM by SAC »
...it's not over until I say it's over

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 11:57:22 PM »
As you said it, most airlines kill themselves right without your kind help.
And as staked in the rules, you must accept competition. Being the bigger, better, wealthier airline will put you on top anyway. There is no right
for anybody to own an airport 100%. Not every other airline means a "threat",and not earning trazillions with every bird you fly means instant failure. I think you exaggerate a great deal.No airline in the RW can fly in margins of this game, there are a lot of limiting rules in RL that are not depicted here so you will have to accept limiting game rules. For the most experienced players this game is much too easy already.
I donīt think your propose of a "gentlemen only"-club world for the $$$$-crazed hyper-alliance-rulers would lead anywhere but into total boredom.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 12:17:46 AM by exchlbg »

mean123

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2012, 12:35:48 AM »
"You donīt win anything frustrating everybody off." 

The above is exactly what you do to me every time i see your comments in the forums!!!

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2012, 02:22:55 AM »
I once stated weīre among grown-ups in these forums. I was wrong, sorry.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 04:09:45 PM by exchlbg »

Offline BOEING717

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2012, 02:41:12 AM »
I am sorry if I have upset anyone. I got into MT late and only had KidCo in SEA. Dearborn came later and tried to start Allegiant air type carrier out of Seatac. I understood that the big guns would buy turboprops and come at me on the small routes and then changed my play to 1500 Mile routes with 120 to 150 PAX per day with single MD-90 flights. I had an airline that was #1 in citys served in the last BW game and know how things are done. I also get squash the small bug before he gets big.

My point and it is pretty obvious is routes that are not wanted so I start and fly them, then suddenly that route is good enough for the big airline. If Seattle to Appleton was a route that was wanted to be flown why wait until my airline is flying it. It is obvious no one is making money with 2 airlines flying a route with 110PAX per day (especially at 1,000 plus Jet A) The fact that the 4 new routes I started were then started by a competing airline is beyond obvious. Perhaps I was stupid starting up so late in the MT7 game but I wanted some practice at it, and loving the game wanted to give Sami some money to keep the game going. I have no issue with fighting it out on routes but come on, this is a very obvious attempt to put my airline in the dumpster. If that is fine with the game, then I guess I will have to use that tactic in my other games, but I have been warned that it is against the rules. Hence my confusion. It is either one or the other.

Sorry if I have upset anyone and I don't consider myself an idiot or having no knowledge in aviation (worked in the business for several years before deciding I loved being a tennis umpire)  I just feel that 4 routes being jumped on after I start them up is obvious (even to my 10yr old daughter) Good luck to all and I guess this is not a game I want to play if an airline decides to dump cash to simply kill off a niche player.

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2012, 03:02:13 AM »
You didnīt really upset anyone since it started to be a more general discussion.
I think you made mistakes especially with the turboprop routes (as long you were starting to fly them), leaving so many free gaps for competitor.
That way you canīt even proof that he is targeting you, because he didnīt have to dump seats to do so.
As far as I can judge, the case with those 110-routes is different.That is clearly seat-dumping and targeting, especially, if you can show that he could use his aircraft for still unserved demand.
I fear that expertise in RL aviation wonīt help you much for this game, too many things work differently in here.
Starting late in a game world surely takes you far behind the big boys, so staying out of their way always worked for me. Some guys are really tight about "winning" and nuke everything right out of their way. Itīs very tedious always bringing that to Samiīs attention especially if the case is not 100% obvious.

Offline SAC

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2012, 08:39:40 AM »
You did not upset anyone B717, and I can totally understand your issue, so do not worry about that, but I do also fully understand why KidCo would like to limit any future threat to his airline.

In a nut shell I was trying to say that with so many grey areas in the rules about targeting then we are always in a position where airlines like yours will be upset and complain if "targeted", but so will incumbent airlines if they cannot control growth of competitors that could one day cost their airlines money.   It crops up over and over again and upsets many players.  We don't want that.  There must be a better way to do it i.e. game worlds with varying degrees of difficulty, or clearer rules so airlines can see clearly the line they should not cross i.e. how long is acceptable to wait before opening up on competitors routes without the threat of being accused of targeting or bullying.

...it's not over until I say it's over

Offline Sami

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2012, 10:16:33 AM »
I have not been able to investigate this yet, but I can see when each airline opened each route. And if I see that the dominant airline has opened routes ONLY to the same destinations as the new airline and opened the routes AFTER the new airline (sort of copying his routes), then it is moving towards rule breaking, if that is combined to his supply of about 150% or over. So in other words quite many things must match there...

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2012, 02:51:44 PM »
I am sorry if I have upset anyone. I got into MT late and only had KidCo in SEA. Dearborn came later and tried to start Allegiant air type carrier out of Seatac. I understood that the big guns would buy turboprops and come at me on the small routes and then changed my play to 1500 Mile routes with 120 to 150 PAX per day with single MD-90 flights. I had an airline that was #1 in citys served in the last BW game and know how things are done. I also get squash the small bug before he gets big.

My point and it is pretty obvious is routes that are not wanted so I start and fly them, then suddenly that route is good enough for the big airline. If Seattle to Appleton was a route that was wanted to be flown why wait until my airline is flying it. It is obvious no one is making money with 2 airlines flying a route with 110PAX per day (especially at 1,000 plus Jet A) The fact that the 4 new routes I started were then started by a competing airline is beyond obvious. Perhaps I was stupid starting up so late in the MT7 game but I wanted some practice at it, and loving the game wanted to give Sami some money to keep the game going. I have no issue with fighting it out on routes but come on, this is a very obvious attempt to put my airline in the dumpster. If that is fine with the game, then I guess I will have to use that tactic in my other games, but I have been warned that it is against the rules. Hence my confusion. It is either one or the other.

Sorry if I have upset anyone and I don't consider myself an idiot or having no knowledge in aviation (worked in the business for several years before deciding I loved being a tennis umpire)  I just feel that 4 routes being jumped on after I start them up is obvious (even to my 10yr old daughter) Good luck to all and I guess this is not a game I want to play if an airline decides to dump cash to simply kill off a niche player.

If you have not played a full game outside of beginners world you shouldn't base at SEA or any other top airports because this is what happens in virtually every game.

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2012, 04:23:26 PM »
I agree about it is happening all the time. But breaking rules stays breaking rules.
I agree about carefully picking your home base joining late. At least you should have a clear picture and strategy how you could "snug in" without crossing "big brotherīs" paths too soon. On the other hand the "defender" in this case overreacted on attacking opponent even on these unimportant routes, he could have noticed that newcomer had no coordinated strategy to be a "threat".
On the third hand OP is manager of an alliance, thus in my opinion deserves much less "protection" than an "innocent" noob.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 04:28:45 PM by exchlbg »

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2012, 07:39:06 AM »
This kind of argument always amazes me....since when did a game involve the words.....don't try your best, let your competitor win a little bit now and then so that it can potentially come back and knock you out of the game later.
What a load of rubbish....kiddies park rules...or as it has been said here before 'Facebook Sandbox Games'

The problem always stems from one major flaw in their argument -

They always want to start late in the game at a size 4 or 5 airports and/or fly into size 4 or 5 airports
NEWSFLASH
If you do that you are playing in the Big Boys Park not the Kiddies Park

Many Many Many size 3, 2 and 1 airports with no airline and many routes to fly if your a late starter and want to 'try the gameplay'

« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 07:44:56 AM by Kadachiman »

Talentz

  • Former member
Re: Very upset with deliberate attack by KidCo
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2012, 08:39:15 AM »
Now now, no need to get to worked up. There is a balance to these situations. A mix of personal and game enforced limits.

Starting in a fortress hub of a multi-billion dollar, dominate airline is asking for a slap in the face. Rightfully so too. Sami has stated that in the past. Even tested the theory out (remember ZRH, Sami? 8))

That said, an established airline going all-out attacking a newly created airline from day one is against the TOS. This is stated and is not up for discussion. Buy AWS from Sami if you don't like it.

Personally. Use for damn head. Not every player is a major threat. It's one thing if I start an airline in your hub. It's completely different if zzz user name created 11/18/12 starts in your hub. Using good judgement solves most of these cases.

As for the OP and everyone else: When you feel someone is breaking the rules, there's a little icon that you can hit to report a violation. If the admin/mods see/feel something is wrong, justice will be served. Remember, they can restore things, should you require it.

As for me, if some of you are wondering what one of most aggressive AWS players does, its simple. I don't touch newer players. Even if they open up on me from day 1. How could they be a threat to me?
I will only aggressively play with the more experienced players. Pre-beta, beta, top 1st and 2nd gen players. If they want a piece of the pie, then they have to deal with the people who sit on the top of the food chain. Nuff said.


Talentz





 

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