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Author Topic: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config  (Read 993 times)

Offline swadeepc

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ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« on: October 09, 2012, 03:36:59 PM »
Hi guys. I am actually thinking about doing direct flights for routes around 8000-10000 nm. Of course I will be using 777-200LR for it and would only probably do it being the owner of the plane as leasing it would definitely kill me. The route demands are there with Business Class being around 20-30 and more than 300 for Economy. Now I need some advice please.

A} 30 Premium Business Seats and 250 Standard Economy Seats
B} 264 All Premium Economy Seats (maybe charge higher price also)
C} 380 All Standard Economy Seats (eat up all the seats as I can. Comfort level is GOOD here)
D} I guess not even worth considering doing an all business class?

So which option? Or just give it a miss or maybe do it with one stop instead with 777-300ER. I know the general consensus is to give ULH a miss but I am tempted to try between option B and C. Where the schedule is free I will fly to normal destinations too.

This is the first time I'm still in the game since the start haha so I don't want it to end because of this. Hope you guys can point me in the right direction.

Thanks
Swadeep

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2012, 06:08:40 PM »
I would take as much business I can, those people pay for the whole thing. That means option A.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 04:18:22 AM »
I would take as much business I can, those people pay for the whole thing. That means option A.

Agreed, or something even more business/first heavy than A.

use first class if you can.

Options B and C are money losers.

Offline swadeepc

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  • Posts: 76
Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 05:56:19 AM »
Thanks very much for your replies. Yes I think I will end up using this config:

4 Premium First Class Seats 30 Premium Business Class Seats 250 Standard Economy Seats.

Let's see how this works out! Thanks again guys

Cheers
Swadeep

Offline Infinity

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 07:12:58 AM »
It will not earn you any money at all, I speak from experience.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 08:36:42 AM »
Never use anything else than standard seating. If fuel price isn't too high, it makes you some money. Enough for a slight profit.

I use DC-10-30(ER) on routes from Heathrow to Auckland, Brisbane and Sidney with tech-stop (you fly nonstop) and while fuel for me is much cheaper than for you due to other gameworlds, it generates a nice profit. Far away from the real mony makers, but a good $600k per week over total break-even.

Oh, and of course I use standard seating...

Offline Infinity

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2012, 09:07:51 AM »
Never use anything else than standard seating.

That's particularly important on ULH as you will rarely have any competition, so premium seating won't buy anything. Passengers don't differentiate between short long hauls and long long hauls.
However, even with owned planes it becomes impossible to earn any money on 9k nm routes once the fuel spikes later in the game. Up to now fuel is ridiculously cheap, so it might still run a profit, but nobody can know when the fuel is going to explode.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2012, 09:24:06 AM »
Yeah, when the routes start to generate loss it's a clever move to close them. Until them it's even more clever to make profit out of them. :)


I remember fuel spikes that BK'd nearly every airline that run other aircraft than CS300, A320, 737NG or 753. But that's no argument to not open long-haul operations at all.


Note: As I said, your higher fuel prices can be covered up a bit by not having a tech-stop and more business/first class, a more fuel efficient aircraft with more seats at all, a pilot less and not flying this far... Fuel is about $162 right now. They are newly leased DC-10-30ER, so they are expensive and not some old used crap with low costs.

Offline Infinity

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2012, 01:00:48 PM »
I remember having a lengthy dispute with Swiftus here not too long ago about a similar matter. Only I was in your position and he was in mine. It took an orchestrated action of 2 others to get me down ultimately to prove that the 777 doesn't operate well.
It worked quite well on transatlantics and stuff without much competition, but my ULHs from Newark to Australia lost me money from day one, despite the aircraft reporting a small profit. The overhead was simply too costly.

ULHs work as a prestige tool if you can afford it because you're running so well, but they are not a good thing if you need them to run profitably. Even if you can operate them profitably now, what do you do with the aircraft once fuel spikes? You can't use them on other routes very well as they are inferior to most competing models, and since you don't know when fuel is going to spike you can't just cancel out on them. They will either have an expensive lease running or won't sell very well on the used market if you own them.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2012, 01:27:44 PM »
I think I've described how they work:
Establish them as soon as you can afford and close them as soon as fuel increases to high. If fuel decreases enough, you could establish them again.


The 777-200LR really sucks. That's why I prefer doing ULH with normal aircraft, maybe with a tech-stop. This gives me the possiblity to utilize them otherwise if ULH stops to be making enough profit.

If you want to use 777-200LR (or A340-500 etc.), you need to purchase them. This at least minimizes the leasing costs when you are not able to find them.


But, again. The problem isn't only limited to the ULH. ULH and very short small jet routes are the first who suffer from high fuel prices, but if the fuel price is high enough, even your normal long-haul flights suffer.

Key feature of AirwaySim is to know when a certain aircraft stops to be a good one - for example DC-10 is very popular in ATB beginnings, but it stops from being this popular soon, while it lasts most DotM. Same for 727(-200Adv) in DotM. You can make endless money if you choose it first, but when you fail to get rid of it right in time, it will cost you money.

ULH can make profit. You simply need to know when to stop and it's easier if you use multi role aircraft like 777-200ER, 747-400(ER), A330-300 or DC-10-30ER, maybe with tech-stop. As you pointed out there's nearly no competition and the lower ticket price for tech-stops isn't this hard. On the other hand you could use an 777-200LR also on shorter routes. It consumes less fuel than the 777-200ER and is just more expensive to order.


Oh, and I prefer to do the opposite of what Swiftus says. In fact I would prefer the help from my eight year old niece who never has heard of AWS... both will give better results.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2012, 05:07:15 PM »
Since you can now jack up fares, none of the previous tests on the profit/loss potential of a 777 that were limited to default fares is totally conclusive anymore.

But I would only use prem seat if the space would otherwise go empty (due to payload restriction). If you can jam in more standard seats (and fill them) within the payload limit for this range, I would do so.

Offline swadeepc

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 06:48:11 AM »
I will not be leasing the seven 77L that I ordered at all. I have already put in and order for it and delayed the first delivery till Jan 2007. And yes now that we can charge higher than default price hopefully it will make some difference. Anyway let's see. I will have to decide on seat configs again. Maybe i will have to try squeeze more seats in too. Worst case I will have to them with a stop or I will just use it on other normal routes to N. America and Europe.

Thanks again guys. If any more ideas please feel free to suggest  :)

Thanks
Swadeep

Offline NovemberCharlie

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2012, 03:17:29 PM »
the 777-200LR is actually more efficient than the -200ER
It burns only 6600kg/hr for both variants. So if you want to fly max range -200ER you might actually be better of going for the -200LR, it makes a difference of at least 370kg/hr and up to 480 kg/hr! and costs only 200 000 per month extra

So if you ever consider the 200ER, you might just as well consider the -200LR

Cheers

Offline swadeepc

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Re: ULH > 8000nm. Seat Config
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2012, 01:25:48 AM »
the 777-200LR is actually more efficient than the -200ER
It burns only 6600kg/hr for both variants. So if you want to fly max range -200ER you might actually be better of going for the -200LR, it makes a difference of at least 370kg/hr and up to 480 kg/hr! and costs only 200 000 per month extra

So if you ever consider the 200ER, you might just as well consider the -200LR

Cheers

Yes. I have already ordered 777-200LR. I will try it on the ULH routes. If things don't go well then I will operate with one stop or utilize the aircraft on other routes. Cheers.  :)

Thanks
Swadeep

 

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