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Author Topic: Any experience with ULH all business class  (Read 974 times)

coopdogyo

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Any experience with ULH all business class
« on: September 30, 2012, 09:24:49 PM »
Anyone have any experience flying ultra long haul flights in an all F/C config? How did it work? Were the profits any better than having Y in there?

brique

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 10:23:08 PM »
cant be done in current game : you have to have a minimum percentage of Y seats in the aircraft to be able to sell any C/F seats :

Offline FlyTO

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 11:10:13 PM »
cant be done in current game : you have to have a minimum percentage of Y seats in the aircraft to be able to sell any C/F seats :

Is this true? Or just assumed? I'm curious, because I was planning on opening up routes of 8400 with mostly C/F seats.

brique

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 11:20:53 PM »
Could be done once, but it got abused, so now you have to have mostly Y to have any C/F : search 'magic carpet' for full details : basically, a player would only run all c/f flights out of a major, mop up all the c/f traffic and make silly amounts of cash from game-day 1 : so it had to be nerfed.

Correction: it looks like you can re-seat to all c/f and even fly them, you just wont fill them : esquireflyer, who is running Concs in JA#6, reports that switching to all c/f gave the same c/f load as when he ran y/c/f : he just lost the Y pax and didnt gain any C/F in their place : which suggests a maximum limit in place on c/f regardless of actual seating configuration, probably a %-type limit.

Apologies for my earlier mis-interpretation of the mechanics of the limitation.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 11:51:09 PM by brique »

coopdogyo

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 12:13:29 AM »
Is there anyway to know the percentage?

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2012, 01:01:53 AM »
cant be done in current game : you have to have a minimum percentage of Y seats in the aircraft to be able to sell any C/F seats :

This is not entirely true, at least not in an absolute way.

In Jet Age, I have flown all F/C Concordes and sold some F/C seats, although the LFs I got were not very high (around 60%). But the route was highly competitive, and Jet Age demand is the lowest of the game worlds, so the fact that I was not able to fill up the F and C cabins could have been because of competition/oversupply and not because of my lack of Y seats.

Sami has written that all F/C cabin configurations "should" work if you have a very high CI and RI.
(In my tests, I had 100 CI and RI.)

However, with ULH, I don't know if you can make a big profit (or any profit) flying all C and F, since you still have the basic problem of the game's default ticket prices not keeping up with fuel burn. I guess it probably depends a lot on how long the route is and how much you are able to raise prices above default.

So, you can sell F and C seats without having any Y. Whether you can make a profit depends on a lot of factors (and IME it is difficult to do), but you can at least sell some tickets.

In reviewing the pictures below, please don't be overly alarmed by the low profit levels, as those are probably caused in part due to (1) Jet Age dollars being less inflated than Modern Times dollars and (2) Concorde fuel burn being outrageous; and not necessarily because I used a magic carpet config. My point in attaching them is just to say that you can sell the tickets.

EDIT: I noted after writing this that brique already wrote a correction to the post I was originally replying to, so now I've just provided a little additional detail.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 01:15:00 AM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 01:37:05 AM »
Is there anyway to know the percentage?


I don't know this, and what I've written below is just my best guess based on my limited testing in this area. I can't guarantee that this information is accurate, but this is what I would assume if I were designing a route of this type.

  • F and C pax are very picky about CI and RI. If you have either low CI or low RI, most of the F and C pax would rather not fly than fly with your airline, even if you have a monopoly. Thus, you should not attempt a full C/F config unless I have CI >90, and you should also plan to lose money on the route until your RI reaches at least 70-90 or higher.
  • In a basic sense, F and C pax seem to be divided among the flights the same way Y pax are (for example, 4 daily flights on a route means each flight will get 1/4 of the available F and C pax). But it's made more complicated by the passengers' sensitivity to CI and RI described above: the airline(s) with higher CI and RI will get more F and C than the airlines with lower CI and RI.
  • Also remember that passengers finally care about price in MT7, so the above assumptions can also be affected if your competitors decide to mess with you by fighting a price war. Losing 1 C or F pax to your competitor hurts a lot more than losing 1 Y pax does, because of the high ticket price of F and C.

So, for example, if profitability will depend on your attracting all or most of the displayed F and C demand on a route, and there are already 2-3 other flights on the route operated by airlines with reasonably high CI, then you will probably lose money on the route, because you won't be able to get all/most of the F and C pax. On the other hand, if the route has huge F and C demand, and you only need to get 10% of them to make a profit, and there are currently only 8-9 other flights on the route, you can probably make a profit (assuming that you have a high CI, and are willing to also eat the losses until you have a high RI).

If the Y demand is also huge, however (i.e. if F and C is not a very high % of the overall demand, and it's just a big route in all classes), you will be vulnerable to being frequency raped by other airlines who have Y cabins. Because they are flying Y also, they can turn a profit while attracting fewer F/C pax, than you would need to attract to turn a profit yourself. So, personally I would only attempt an all F/C config on routes that (a) have a high F/C demand proportion, such as LHR-HKG, and not just high demand numbers, or (b) have a lack of slots, so it's hard for you to get frequency raped, or (c) are such long routes that none of the competitors on either side will want to fly against you, because it requires techstops or a magic carpet configuration to make the distance possible.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 01:39:26 AM by EsquireFlyer »

brique

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2012, 01:57:38 AM »
I based my response on some research I did a while back when I was toying with the idea of running some all C flights on some of my (then) Japanese airlines domestic routes into a slot-locked HND : I'd have to search back for the relevant threads which applied but, of course, they could have been a/ wrong or b/ right when written but since superceded.

I'm happy to bow to esquires more recent experience and superior knowledge of the issue and withdraw my comments.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2012, 04:05:22 AM »
Due to magic carpet sami implemented the first code against all premium aircraft.

With one of the several long-haul nerfs the last two years there were implemented even more code, like the huge CI impact and now RI impact we see in the new gameworlds.


The conclusion is you can configurate your aircraft all first class/business but you won't not be able to fill it up, regardless if there's endless demand and no competition. Jona L. and others tried this several times for test purposes out of Heathrow.


While the program don't let you get full aircraft with premium only seating, it's clever to throw some Economy Class in. If sami hasn't changed the code further the Economy class part of your configuration can be less than 50%. I remember myself using something like 55 Eco, 80 business, 20 first class on DC-8 from KLAX to EGLL 10 month or so ago and in my current gameworld I fly DC-10 with barely 50% Economy to several destinations and get 90-100% LF.


Conclusion is:
Put some Economy in, you need it to turn a profit on ULH. The exact amount of needed Economy on your route can only be found out by yourself testing around.

Offline Meicci

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2012, 07:58:53 AM »
This experiment was done back in MT6, with competition on that route. At least the TPE-LAX route was generating good load factors and profits.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2012, 09:23:56 AM »
With only 12 first class seats, 63 (or 70) business class seats and economy seats your overall profits would be higher - and you would have been able to throw another aircraft with the same settings on the route to increase profit even more.

Don't get me wrong and maybe fuel price was ultra high, but less than $100k per route isn't something I'd aim for, especially on such a premium route (#4 or #5 out of KLAX).

Offline Meicci

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 09:28:21 AM »
With only 12 first class seats, 63 (or 70) business class seats and economy seats your overall profits would be higher - and you would have been able to throw another aircraft with the same settings on the route to increase profit even more.

Don't get me wrong and maybe fuel price was ultra high, but less than $100k per route isn't something I'd aim for, especially on such a premium route (#4 or #5 out of KLAX).

True. Simple as that.

But my point was to proof that you can get good load factors with only business and first class seats. Because before that experiment, I thought that the Magic Carpet -rule doesn't allow that kind of LF's to even happen.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 04:30:12 PM »
Yes, there seems to be a lot of incorrect information on the forums about the magic carpet restriction. Possibly because the rule may have changed over time, and the posts were written at different times? Either that, or some of the info is just wrong.

Offline Meicci

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 04:36:18 PM »
Yes, there seems to be a lot of incorrect information on the forums about the magic carpet restriction. Possibly because the rule may have changed over time, and the posts were written at different times? Either that, or some of the info is just wrong.

I believe that MC-rule goes off when reaching a certain CI amount. Just my thoughts..

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2012, 04:41:47 PM »
With magic carpet it was possible to have 100% LF all time.

In your example LF were 13% and 62% - both aren't "good" in my eyes. Maybe different opinions are why some people say it doesn't work and some say it works.

Offline Sami

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2012, 04:52:29 PM »
Due to magic carpet sami implemented the first code against all premium aircraft.

No.

The full-premium flights were (and are still) just much more CI (& RI) sensitive. In other words you cannot sell a fully F-class configured 747 with let's say 20% company image. With 100 image, it's entirely different story.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Any experience with ULH all business class
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2012, 05:35:27 PM »
We'll see this as soon as my first 744 arrives. :) I'm really curious about this now.


Any route suggestions? It will be mid 1989 then and all Asia routes except Narita are (hopefully) competition free until this date. Of course I will make sure RI is 100 and I will test with this flight only as well as real conditions (= normal flights to fill up Economy and Business and this one).

I suggest Singapore as it provides yet (end '86) about 120 first class pax.

 

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