AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics  (Read 2957 times)

schweizer

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2012, 05:15:11 PM »
Quote
, I know a lot of airlines, myself included hate doing the D check

I am well aware of this considering you are about to hand me back my a320 without the D check done  :'(

Me thinks the bank will be knocking on the door shortly :(

Offline FlyTO

  • Members
  • Posts: 260
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2012, 05:18:28 PM »
I am well aware of this considering you are about to hand me back my a320 without the D check done  :'(

Me thinks the bank will be knocking on the door shortly :(

Sorry mate

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012, 05:22:51 PM »
It also helps me (the broker) not have to deal with the plane while it's on d-check (makes losses while grounded)
By forcing someone else to make the losses while grounded; in this case, a newbie airline that did not know any better.

The D check, yes, I know a lot of airlines, myself included hate doing the D check, it makes the plane useless.
Lots of airlines may hate doing the D check, but IMO, tricking a newbie player into doing the D check for you is not a reasonable procedure for dealing with it. Your move actually caused the new airline to BK, just to line your pockets, which is not fair or honorable IMHO.

I like the fact that you've written so much here about how bad a D check is when you have to do it (makes losses while grounded, makes the plane useless, etc.) in your justification of why this lease offer is supposedly not so bad for someone else who has to do a D check for you, on a plane they can't even use for a year.

A D check is really not so bad if you handle it in an organized and planned way. But an unplanned D check can kill an airline, especially a new/small airline, like the one you killed with this posting.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 05:29:05 PM by EsquireFlyer »

schweizer

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012, 05:24:54 PM »

Quote
Sorry mate

No worries, this is my first AWS non beginners world airline and I have learnt my lesson when it comes to leassing :P

Offline Andre

  • Members
  • Posts: 1091
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 05:26:23 PM »
By forcing someone else to make the losses while grounded; in this case, a newbie airline that did not know any better.
Lots of airlines may hate doing the D check, but IMO, tricking a newbie player into doing the D check for you is not a reasonable procedure for dealing with it. Your move actually caused the new airline to BK, just to line your pockets, which is not fair or honorable IMHO.

+ 1

All my company notepads now say "Never do business with FlyTO" as a reminder.

Offline FlyTO

  • Members
  • Posts: 260
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2012, 05:37:45 PM »
I never said my plan was to trick newbies and it's not. It's offering a really popular and useful plane at a reasonable price and is available in 8weeks game time.

Yes a "new" airline leased it, it made me 2.5M, not a lot compared to the 4M I usually get. But it still seems reasonable even to "new airlines".

you start off with 10M, spend 4M on my plane, that leaves them with 6M. Plenty to use for slots or another plane, done wisely.

FYI if an airline leases the aircraft and performs D check before delivery, no actual losses occur, just the unearned revenue of not flying for 2months.

If you don't like the plane on the used market with non AI brokers, no one is forcing you to lease or buy it. Why don't you make another thread pointing out it is wrong to put a plane on sale only at a 50% markup or the used aircraft page doesnt have the plane i want at a reasonable deal whine thread.

Lastly, well forget it, no need to discuss further "airline business simulator" strategies on making profit.

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2012, 05:41:46 PM »
"Forcing" to lease and do the D-check? Whoīs forced? For what I know you decide to lease.
Itīs simple math. If you can hardly add 1 to 1 avoid playing eco-sims. Stick to hitting, running,racing and shooting.
Itīs real world experience at itīs best: try to buy a used car without being screwed ! Here at least no one is lying and cheating, everything is clearly visible.

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2012, 05:46:37 PM »
It's also not that unattractive if you look at it:

510k monthly lease for a popular A320. Similar or lower than what AI brokers sell for.
The D check, yes, I know a lot of airlines, myself included hate doing the D check, it makes the plane useless.
BUT for 2months added to the 2weeks delivery period and a measly 1.7M (105k monthly average) you get an otherwise perfect midage plane to fly for 10months that will still easily make over 500k profit.

It's offering a really popular and useful plane at a reasonable price and is available in 8weeks game time.

If you honestly thought this offer was so "reasonable" and "attractive," why didn't you take the offer yourself, by just D checking your own plane and having it available to you again in 8 weeks' game time (and for the rest of the game too, not just 10 years). By posting this listing, you implicitly rejected a deal that was much better than the one that you are offering.

Yes a "new" airline leased it, it made me 2.5M, not a lot compared to the 4M I usually get. But it still seems reasonable even to "new airlines".

you start off with 10M, spend 4M on my plane, that leaves them with 6M. Plenty to use for slots or another plane, done wisely.

FYI if an airline leases the aircraft and performs D check before delivery, no actual losses occur, just the unearned revenue of not flying for 2months.

Do you really think this is a smart way to start an airline? By leasing a plane that has to go straight into D check? And re this "FYI," again, the same thing is true if you D check the plane yourself. But compared to you, the new airline is actually in a much worse position to afford the D check, which is why he BK'ed for it.

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2012, 06:01:28 PM »
Another airline, Australian, has listed another plane in similar state, BUT this one is much fairer because it allows a lease longer than one year, so that the lessee can actually benefit from the D check he/she has to perform.

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/Used/View/41218/
http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/View/History/17896/

In my opinion, this is a reasonable way to do it; whereas what FlyTO listed was not.

EDIT: Oh, this must be the plane that FlyTO leased and dumped back to the lessor right before the D check, while simultaneously posting his own listing preventing his lessees from doing the same thing.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 06:07:30 PM by EsquireFlyer »

schweizer

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2012, 06:12:09 PM »
feel free to lease my aircraft (australian) I could do with the extra cash considering I'd like to avoid going BK.

FlyTO had offered to buy the aircraft from me but turns out my loan I have against that a/c wont allow me  to sell it...
another noob mistake on my behalf!

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2012, 06:29:04 PM »
feel free to lease my aircraft (australian) I could do with the extra cash considering I'd like to avoid going BK.

FlyTO had offered to buy the aircraft from me but turns out my loan I have against that a/c wont allow me  to sell it...
another noob mistake on my behalf!

If you would be willing to lower the price by 10%, I will lease it for a few years and do the D check for you. Is that acceptable?

schweizer

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2012, 06:38:09 PM »
pm sent

Offline Frogiton

  • Members
  • Posts: 784
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2012, 06:41:44 PM »
Hi guys,

Doing this is not wrong imo, it's simply basics of economics and the simple supply and demand principle. It's also not that unattractive if you look at it:

510k monthly lease for a popular A320. Similar or lower than what AI brokers sell for.
The D check, yes, I know a lot of airlines, myself included hate doing the D check, it makes the plane useless.
BUT for 2months added to the 2weeks delivery period and a measly 1.7M (105k monthly average) you get an otherwise perfect midage plane to fly for 10months that will still easily make over 500k profit.

This assures the airline old or new to have a very useful plane in 8weeks instead of 8years on new market or 8days real life getting lucky on the used market.

It also helps me (the broker) not have to deal with the plane while it's on d-check (makes losses while grounded) or I can offer it to an alliance mate or an airline that's new and asks nicely about leasing the plane for a long lease.

Looks like you're ready for politics. Go run for office in your city next election.
No replacement for displacement

Offline ARASKA

  • Members
  • Posts: 1336
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2012, 06:43:33 PM »
Looks like you're ready for politics. Go run for office in your city next election.
+1

brique

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2012, 07:03:40 PM »
Almost worth leasing the damn thing to just hammer it for a year then send it back in 20% condition and overdue on every check known to mankind.... ;D

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2012, 07:18:51 PM »
Almost worth leasing the damn thing to just hammer it for a year then send it back in 20% condition and overdue on every check known to mankind.... ;D

Don't forget to rip out the seats, and send it back in a 48 HD Y configuration.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2012, 07:27:09 PM »
Don't forget to rip out the seats, and send it back in a 48 HD Y configuration.

That would be cruel, heartless and mean-minded : *adds it to list.

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2012, 08:21:19 PM »
Oh! And THIS kind of leasing tactic must be why FlyTO was asking for a feature allowing the lessor to force the lessee to keep the plane over a D check!

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,42262.0/topicseen.html

He happily dumped Australian's plane back to him right before the D check, but wants to prevent people leasing his own planes from being able to do the same thing.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 08:24:06 PM by EsquireFlyer »

brique

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2012, 08:59:50 PM »
the fact is, the d-check system is unfair and prone to all kinds of abuse because it makes no economic sense to be the one left holding the parcel when the music stops.

A/B/C- checks, yes, they 'fit' into the cycle of lease periods, few are less than a year unless the airline BK's fast ; but D-checks come round every 8 years and when they hit, you get the whole price to pay, regardless of how long you have actually had the a/c, and you get the double-whammy of months of lost revenue too. Or you can be 'smart' and dump the a/c back the week before it hits and let some other soul pick up the tab. It doesn't work for the one leasing out the a/c either ; they can end up with a massive bill to pay before they can re-lease the plane, or have to put it on the market at well-below price to move it on.

the only solution that makes sense to me is that the owner effectively recalls the a/c and d-checks it : the cost of the d-check is averaged out over the 8-yr cycle and forms part of the lease fee : the airline leasing the aircraft stands the lost revenue whilst its being checked, or moves the routes onto a spare (feature: how about paying a leasing premium to have a spare a/c supplied that automatically picks up the routes whilst one is being recalled/d-checked?).

But, as it stands, this kind of sorry tale will not go away and it will never be fair for either side of the deal while one side can dodge the bill or the other load it onto the unsuspecting short-term leasor


Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2012, 09:24:53 PM »
IMO the D check is, or should be priced into the lease price. One of the reasons a lessee pays a markup on leasing a plane vs. the actual calculated value of the plane is for the flexibility and the option of returning it at the end of the lease period (or at any time, upon paying termination fee).

Personally, I would not be surprised or annoyed if anyone leasing my planes at a markup returned it right before the D check. The lease fee covers the D check and then some. On the other hand, if I gave someone a deeply discounted lease (such as 30% off) as a favor to them, then I would expect them to do the maintenance also and not dump the plane right before D check.

brique, you make a good point that sometimes the lessor can be left holding the bag unexpectedly. For example, an airline that signs a long lease can BK.

However, what happened here was not a typical leasing situation, as the owning airline had flown the plane from the beginning of the game, and was planning to keep flying the plane a year later. He only put the plane up for a 1 year lease to make someone else do the D check for him, and he even requested a feature that would force the plane to be kept for a longer minimum period.

A years-long lease will have a mandatory lease period of several months before the plane can be returned. A one-year lease will only have a 1.2 month mandatory period. But this airline wanted to both cap the lease at 1 year, and have a feature locking the lessee in for 2+ months, just to handcuff the newbie or desperate lessee to the bomb.

Had someone leased this plane for a few months and returned it to the lessor, it would not have left the lessor unfairly holding the bag, because the lessor was flying this plane throughout its entire service life during the game (and planned to continue to do so), whereas the lessee was only allowed to get a few months' service out of the plane. So, while I agree with your general point about the roulette / musical chairs, this case (and this type of case) is not an example of that problem.

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.