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Author Topic: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics  (Read 2955 times)

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« on: August 19, 2012, 04:35:26 AM »
Really? Waiting until 1.4 months before a D check to post a plane for lease that you have been flying since game start, and for lease only, and capping the lease at 1 year max, and marking up the price +25%?

So basically, the brokering airline, FlyTO, wants someone to pay for the privilege of doing his laundry?

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/Used/View/40623/
http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/View/History/5620/
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 04:57:56 PM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline Andre

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2012, 05:03:01 AM »
Some people are scrupleless.

Talentz

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 05:11:37 AM »
Well think of it this way... Least you wont have to do a C check then D check. One D check and your good as gold!!


I did laugh when I saw that on the market. It's not illegal per game rules... but yeah. He has to pay for all those A320/1s he "direct purchase" before going on vacation.. lol!!



Talentz

brique

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 06:08:19 AM »
Really? Waiting until 1.4 months before a D check to post a plane for lease that you have been flying since game start, and capping the lease at 1 year max, and marking up the price +25%?

So basically, the brokering airline, FlyTO, wants someone to pay for the privilege of doing his laundry?

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/Used/View/40623/
http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/View/History/5620/

Or they just want to park the plane up until their cash flow is over some hump or another : putting it on the market zero's the bills on it : avoids that pesky d-check too : over-pricing it means no-one will take it, or if they do, the high price makes it worthwhile losing it.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 06:59:14 AM »
Or they just want to park the plane up until their cash flow is over some hump or another : putting it on the market zero's the bills on it : avoids that pesky d-check too : over-pricing it means no-one will take it, or if they do, the high price makes it worthwhile losing it.

He is most likely not having cash flow issues, since he just posted a press release announcing a "record-setting" 80-plane order for this same A/C type.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 07:16:51 AM »
Oh, no! It looks like FlyTo caught a new player with this trap plane!  :(

This game needs some kind of newbie protection or warning system to prevent this kind of exploitation.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 07:23:37 AM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline Infinity

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 08:12:08 AM »
What's the problem? Every player can see that the plane needs a check in a month, so what's particularly bad about this?

brique

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 09:26:10 AM »
What's the problem? Every player can see that the plane needs a check in a month, so what's particularly bad about this?

Indeed, caveat emptor is the rule of life : if the person who took the plane didn't notice the red warning text on the condition of it, or the over-priced deal, or the month to d-check... well, they probably wouldn't read any other warnings either.

It does assume the plane was bought/leased and not just withdrawn tho...

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 10:19:50 AM »
I bought one of FlyTo's a320s. Was marked up only about 10%, and cost me another 5% of the plane's value to D-check it. 8 year old, freshly D-checked a320 for under $50 mill in MT? Yes please.

Anyone leases that as their first plane, then they're crazy. But it's a perfectly good deal for a bigger airline. I've got no problems with people listing planes at ridiculous markups, seeing if anyone wants to buy it.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 03:02:40 PM »
I bought one of FlyTo's a320s. Was marked up only about 10%, and cost me another 5% of the plane's value to D-check it. 8 year old, freshly D-checked a320 for under $50 mill in MT? Yes please.

Anyone leases that as their first plane, then they're crazy. But it's a perfectly good deal for a bigger airline. I've got no problems with people listing planes at ridiculous markups, seeing if anyone wants to buy it.

If it's available for purchase, it's fine. The plane in question was posted for lease only, 1 year max, with a D check in 1 month, so that the lessee is forced to pay for 12 months' lease fee at +25%, while only getting to fly the plane for less than 9 months, and have to pay for the D check for the lessor on top of that.

The markup itself is not problematic either, if that was all there was. It's the D check in 1 month, plus the 1 year max lease, plus a markup on top of all that, which made the terms so obnoxious.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 03:10:43 PM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 03:07:46 PM »
What's the problem? Every player can see that the plane needs a check in a month, so what's particularly bad about this?

Not every player knows to look out for this, though, because AI brokers will never post a plane that has a D check due in less than 2 years. But a newbie player will easily fall for this trick by a human broker, which is what happened.

Indeed, caveat emptor is the rule of life : if the person who took the plane didn't notice the red warning text on the condition of it, or the over-priced deal, or the month to d-check... well, they probably wouldn't read any other warnings either.

It does assume the plane was bought/leased and not just withdrawn tho...
This response contains numerous errors. First, see above re: newbie trap. The red warning text appears only 30 days before the D check is expired; until then, it's yellow/orange only, even if the D check is only in 1.4 months as it was when FlyTo posted this plane. And there is no explicit explanation of why the number is in orange. Second, I didn't "assume" that the plane was leased; the order history clearly shows that the plane was leased by a new airline, which then BK'ed, returning the plane to FlyTO with a bunch of free money. And FlyTO promptly re-posted the plane to trap more people. Third, as already explained, it was never possible to buy the plane; only to lease it.

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Aircraft/View/History/5620/

Newbies could be protected by this with a JavaScript warning re: the D check date (since the game already contains JS warnings for lots of other newbie pitfalls, like basing at a crowded airport). Or a text box warning printed on the page, as you get when the D check is actually expired, could be added for D checks that are about to expire.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 03:24:08 PM by EsquireFlyer »

brique

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 03:25:08 PM »
This is written at the top of the page every time you open the used plane market :

'When choosing for an aircraft please remember to analyze the pricing, condition and maintenance history among other values.'

The condition % is color coded to denote expired/expiring major maint : that's C and D-checks : I would agree that the warning text about this ('Aircraft condition % is color coded according to heavy maintenance validity.') is in rather smallish text at bottom-left of the page and that could be improved upon:

as for the lease only clause : you original post didn't mention that, just the capped lease period.

I would agree its not a very nice move but if folks, newb or otherwise, are happy to click 'okay' on leasing it, they ain't long for this game anyway, adding pop-up warnings will not save them, but it will irritate the feck out of the rest of us.

just my .02% worth...




Offline Sanabas

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 03:32:08 PM »
If a new player gets quickly killed by a D-check, they'll learn for next time. If a big airline takes that plane, instead of paying 700k/month for 12 months (8.4 mill) as they normally would, they pay 10 mill for leases + D-check, and get to fly for 9.5 months. That's under 300k/week, the majority of my a320s make at least 500k/week before leases get taken out. It's not that bad a price. It's just heavily front-loaded, which means a brand new or very small airline can't use it.

Offline Infinity

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 04:07:32 PM »


Newbies could be protected by this with a JavaScript warning re: the D check date (since the game already contains JS warnings for lots of other newbie pitfalls, like basing at a crowded airport). Or a text box warning printed on the page, as you get when the D check is actually expired, could be added for D checks that are about to expire.

They should have learned this in Beginners World, if the haven't, well, tough luck. The analysis of aircraft available on the used market really is one of the fundamental and easy principles of this game, if a player does not learn it in his first world, he probably never will (see Southeast Airlines or how Lorenzo jr. calls himself nowadays).
There is absolutely no action necessary in this field, nor is FlyTO to be condemned for this.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 04:22:47 PM »
On top of all this, the listing shows as yellow/red on the used aircraft page...that's about as noticeable as you can make it.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 04:38:28 PM »
I took a look at FLY : the airline which leased this a/c : most odd : if it is the same airline, 14 days old, it has no aircraft, no routes, no income, $1.5mil in cash and a 'B' credit rating : and a 737-600 ordered on a lease due for delivery in 3 game-years time..

the faint whiff of fishiness occureth...


Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2012, 05:01:19 PM »
as for the lease only clause : you original post didn't mention that, just the capped lease period.

Sorry, I linked to the actual listing showing that it was for lease only. But yes, I should have also written in my post that the plane was for lease only, as one of the problems. I forgot to point that out.

A plane with a D check due that is available for sale (so that the buyer can actually get his/her money's worth) is okay IMO.
But a lease-only plane, capped at 1 year, with D check right at the beginning, is abusive.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2012, 05:03:48 PM »
On top of all this, the listing shows as yellow/red on the used aircraft page...that's about as noticeable as you can make it.

It's not "as noticeable as you can make it" because an express warning would be more noticeable than the color coding of just the % on the used AC page. The color coding is not explained on that page, and if the plane is the only one listed of its type (which was the case with this A320-200), the color coding won't even contrast it from "normal" listings on the same page, so it relies on the player to already know and understand the color-coding system. OK for veterans, not so good for newer players.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2012, 05:04:35 PM »
I took a look at FLY : the airline which leased this a/c : most odd : if it is the same airline, 14 days old, it has no aircraft, no routes, no income, $1.5mil in cash and a 'B' credit rating : and a 737-600 ordered on a lease due for delivery in 3 game-years time..

the faint whiff of fishiness occureth...



It was the same airline, yes. However he has just closed a second time.

Offline FlyTO

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Re: Obnoxious Plane Broker Tactics
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012, 05:11:49 PM »
Hi guys,

Doing this is not wrong imo, it's simply basics of economics and the simple supply and demand principle. It's also not that unattractive if you look at it:

510k monthly lease for a popular A320. Similar or lower than what AI brokers sell for.
The D check, yes, I know a lot of airlines, myself included hate doing the D check, it makes the plane useless.
BUT for 2months added to the 2weeks delivery period and a measly 1.7M (105k monthly average) you get an otherwise perfect midage plane to fly for 10months that will still easily make over 500k profit.

This assures the airline old or new to have a very useful plane in 8weeks instead of 8years on new market or 8days real life getting lucky on the used market.

It also helps me (the broker) not have to deal with the plane while it's on d-check (makes losses while grounded) or I can offer it to an alliance mate or an airline that's new and asks nicely about leasing the plane for a long lease.

 

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