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Author Topic: Integrity of an Alliance  (Read 2877 times)

Offline Kadachiman

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Integrity of an Alliance
« on: August 10, 2012, 01:53:50 PM »
We have all heard the big alliances say that they would not tolerate cheats in their ranks in many Game Worlds and many threads, so let's see if they are true to their word

Two big airlines each belonging to Game World dominate but separate alliances have been caught cheating so will the airlines in question stay as alliance members?

Offline NorgeFly

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2012, 02:21:32 PM »
We have all heard the big alliances say that they would not tolerate cheats in their ranks in many Game Worlds and many threads, so let's see if they are true to their word

Two big airlines each belonging to Game World dominate but separate alliances have been caught cheating so will the airlines in question stay as alliance members?

Good point. It does tarnish an alliances image/reputation in my eyes if their members engage in blatant cheating and rule breaking. Personally, if I was their alliance manager, I'd expell them. The rules are clear, breaking them is not acceptable.

Offline Steve

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2012, 03:11:49 PM »
Alliance score and rating is very important. Whats more important is the integrity of the alliance in  players' eyes which a number can not express. I would strongly advise the managers of the two alliance to to advise the offending airlines to voluntarily leave immediately. If that doesn't happen, they should expel the two airlines even if it means taking a hit on alliance score and rating.

Elite and Skyconnect are two of the most respected alliances in AWS and that reputation is going to be tarnished if their managers don't take immediate action. 

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 03:20:58 PM »
Elite and Skyconnect are two of the most respected alliances in AWS and that reputation is going to be tarnished if their managers don't take immediate action. 

This is an internal affair and dealt with as such. There will be no discussion on a public forum from our part at least.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 03:31:24 PM »
This is an internal affair and dealt with as such. There will be no discussion on a public forum from our part at least.

Incorrect, as it is a public matter if you want to retain the good image of your Alliance and prove to all that you stand behind the many posts you and your members have put on these forums at different times testifying to the Honesty & Integrity of your Alliances.

Otherwise it will appear to all as a whitewash by your Alliances.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 03:33:04 PM »
Incorrect, as it is a public matter if you want to retain the good image of your Alliance and prove to all that you stand behind the many posts you and your members have put on these forums at different times testifying to the Honesty & Integrity of your Alliances.

Otherwise it will appear to all as a whitewash by your Alliances.

There will be no discussion on a public forum from our part at least.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Infinity

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 03:48:14 PM »
Honestly, do you really consider this cheating? They tried to take hold of slots as fast as possible. In an environment where picking up slots as fast as possible is vital, doing so by scheduling a short route that can pick up all 7 needed slots with one klick as a daily route as opposed to a long route, for which they may be picked up, where I would have to klick multiple times to pick up the slots - what other choice does an airline based at such an airport have?
I will step forward and 'admit' that I would have done the same without hesitating. I did not know this was forbidden, and frankly am surprised to find it is.
I find absolutely nothing wrong about those players behaviour.

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 03:57:04 PM »
Looks like every airline at LHR got dinged. Instead of calling out the alliances, face the facts. The ONLY way to get slots at LHR (and,I am sure, some other busy airports) is to grab them first by any means possible and then schedule them later. LHR slots increased every game month on the 3rd of the month at noon. All the airlines at LHR figured this out, and, since the issue was reported to Sami last week (by Elite management) and not acted upon until today due to him being on the road, the practice continued until today when action was finally taken. I want to ask everyone else here, if you knew when slots would increase, knew if you did not grab them literally the SECOND they increased or you would get none, and you were based at LHR, what would you do? It is a catch 22. The action is not honest or legal, but if you did not participate in the 3rd of the month mad dash for slots, you would still have 49 slots at your base airport with no hope of growth.

Just food for thought...

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline Sami

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 04:00:05 PM »
I find absolutely nothing wrong about those players behaviour.

Which just means you have absolutely no information on what they have actually done. Sure, if you plan to make a "7 day schedule", it's better to open 1234567 route first and split it to single routes right afterwards. No problem and fully allowed. And sure, if you have planes to which you can schedule the routes right away (and the routes "make sense"), then not a problem at all. But just making "some" routes and adjusting them sometime later is not allowed (ie. have a "dummy route" and just click "copy-open-copy-open-copy-open" and edit/adjust times and real destinations later is not cool).

But; as an example do you think what is seen in next pictures is "nothing wrong" (considering that LHR-EDI demand could have been filled by the player by adding just 3-4 extra flights to what he already had)? Or alternatively opening ~10 routes to a destination that has 0 demand?

And as mentioned, this in my mind is not alliance specific by any means.


(picture from two pages of Route Management, route numbers edited out for anonymity)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 04:06:26 PM by sami »

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 04:12:08 PM »
No problem with pre-programing routes e.g. knowing where you are going to fly to and create the routes ASAP when slot are released...all legal
But to do that takes time.....so to be beaten by someone who picks a route they do not intend to fly and then they duplicate it as quick as they can for all hourly slots.....yes that is cheating.

Anyway, I have had my say so I am out.

I really don't care what the Alliances do...just don't preach the 'Honesty & Integrity' platform in the forums if it is just all words and no action.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 04:14:54 PM by Kadachiman »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 04:13:47 PM »
Which just means you have absolutely no information on what they have actually done. Sure, if you plan to make a "7 day schedule", it's better to open 1234567 route first and split it to single routes right afterwards.

It works only up to ~3500nm.  There is an error when the route with turnaround times take more than 24 hours...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 04:51:03 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 04:36:16 PM »
No problem with pre-programing routes e.g. knowing where you are going to fly to and create the routes ASAP when slot are released...all legal
But to do that takes time.....so to be beaten by someone who picks a route they do not intend to fly and then they duplicate it as quick as they can for all hourly slots.....yes that is cheating.

Anyway, I have had my say so I am out.

I really don't care what the Alliances do...just don't preach the 'Honesty & Integrity' platform in the forums if it is just all words and no action.

It is a gray area.  Elite reported to Sami one possible expoit with the slots.

But while Sami was on vacation, Elite player (Jasmine) had no choice but to match the other players using the exploit.

Since it is a gray area, we did not expect Sami to issue bans, only penalties.  Slots ~25 to ~45 at LHR that were obtained using the exploit were not going to be taken away...
So Jasmine had to participate.  Doing otherwise would be a unilateral disarmament, loss, and a complete win for the worst abuser...

Jasmine did what he did with full knowledge of Alliance, and no action will be taken against him.

Edit: the above applies to earlier slot releases, (1 or 2 at the time).  The recent jump in slots is still a bit of a gray area, a little deeper to the black side.  Just wanted to qualify my comment...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 04:41:42 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 05:17:39 PM »
Which just means you have absolutely no information on what they have actually done. Sure, if you plan to make a "7 day schedule", it's better to open 1234567 route first and split it to single routes right afterwards. No problem and fully allowed.

Sami, if the route is too long to be flown in a 24-hour period, it's not possible to create it as a 1234567 route, even if you have 7 planes ready to use it in a 7-day schedule.

You have to create 7 separate routes (or "same route for next day" 6 times), which takes 7x as long, and which can also lead to a slot-reading block if you have to keep opening the slot page to see why one of the routes won't create (did someone grab the Weds slot? Or do you just need to adjust the time by 10 mins? And do the other days still have that 10 minute increment available so that you can adjust them to match? etc.).

During this time, some of the slot days can be easily grabbed by anyone else, leaving you with holes in your 7-day schedule that are impossible to fix until the next slot release, even though you had all the planes ready and a specific, legitimate route in mind.

If the create route interface was able to accept 1234567 routes with a checkbox to "create each day as a separate route," that would eliminate one major reason why people use fake routes (which are short enough to fit in a 1234567 route), and would also help all players who use 7-day scheduling save a lot of time and mouse clicks, whether they are doing it at slot-locked airports or using fake routes or not, simply because 7 repetitive actions can be combined into 1 quick action.

A player could easily write a script to rapid-create the 7 routes, but that would be cheating; if you add it as a feature, however, then it won't be cheating. Possible?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 05:28:13 PM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 05:23:56 PM »
If the create route interface was able to accept 1234567 routes with a checkbox to "create each route as separate day," that would eliminate one major reason why people use fake routes (which are short enough to fit in a 1234567 route), and would also help all players who use 7-day scheduling save a lot of time and mouse clicks, whether they are doing it at slot-locked airports or using fake routes or not, simply because 7 repetitive actions can be combined into 1 quick action.

+1 to that.

It would also help secure slots at destination airport with routes that are > 24 hours round trip.

Offline NorgeFly

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 06:58:07 PM »
Honestly, do you really consider this cheating? They tried to take hold of slots as fast as possible. In an environment where picking up slots as fast as possible is vital, doing so by scheduling a short route that can pick up all 7 needed slots with one klick as a daily route as opposed to a long route, for which they may be picked up, where I would have to klick multiple times to pick up the slots - what other choice does an airline based at such an airport have?
I will step forward and 'admit' that I would have done the same without hesitating. I did not know this was forbidden, and frankly am surprised to find it is.
I find absolutely nothing wrong about those players behaviour.

It's against the rules laid down by the game developer, therefore, it is cheating. Whether we agree with all the rules is irrelevant. When we play the game we agree to the terms.

Offline Infinity

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 07:38:45 PM »
Which just means you have absolutely no information on what they have actually done.

Oh I was quite aware of what they were doing. Everybody watching the slot business at LHR must have been, there's just no way around picking up the way it works after some time, even if you just want to fly into LHR like I did, not out of it.

The problem with Heathrow is, everybody wants to fly there. High premium demand, incredible overall demand, and that coupled with limited slots and very slow release of slots means just that basically, all the airlines from outside will be flying in after some time, while an airline based there will be the dumb guy having a few flights only.
I mean, it's not as if they were hogging these slots for months and years. They just grabbed the slots, which were only available once a month, in advance, so they could schedule routes for their incoming aircraft, which incidentally don't all arrive on the day the slots become available.

The situation in LHR is dire and I do not think that normal rules for fair play necessarily apply there.

So Jasmine had to participate.  Doing otherwise would be a unilateral disarmament, loss, and a complete win for the worst abuser...


Nice. Quite nice how you paint your new friend in such a warm light, like he was the nice guy that was forced to participate. Come on.
There is not one player starting this, everybody starting at Heathrow and being up to snuff from the start HAS to know how this works and apply it.
Painting it in a way like he was trying to adhere but was forced not to by another evil player is just pathetically lame. Jasmine has been one of the notorious tech-stoppers and it is no surprise to find him in this situation.

I mean no offense - like I said, I see nothing wrong in this behaviour - but putting all the blame on the others is just not right.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 07:47:43 PM by saftfrucht »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 07:48:03 PM »
Oh I was quite aware of what they were doing. Everybody watching the slot business at LHR must have been, there's just no way around picking up the way it works after some time, even if you just want to fly into LHR like I did, not out of it.

The problem with Heathrow is, everybody wants to fly there. High premium demand, incredible overall demand, and that coupled with limited slots and very slow release of slots means just that basically, all the airlines from outside will be flying in after some time, while an airline based there will be the dumb guy having a few flights only.
I mean, it's not as if they were hogging these slots for months and years. They just grabbed the slots, which were only available once a month, in advance, so they could schedule routes for their incoming aircraft, which incidentally don't all arrive on the day the slots become available.

The situation in LHR is dire and I do not think that normal rules for fair play necessarily apply there.

All good points.  Since all the airlines were doing it (all of the LHR airlines were penalized) means that that was the only way to play there...

Also, as far as special rules applying for LHR, the easiest one would be to not allow anyone to HQ there....

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2012, 10:29:15 PM »
Also, as far as special rules applying for LHR, the easiest one would be to not allow anyone to HQ there....

Then disallow HQ in all other major airports too, including you favorite, LAX and stuff like HND, PEK, CDG, ORD, ATL, and a bazillion more.

Ohh, right, we had that, was in Euro- or US-challenge games!

Offline CVACEO

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 10:38:15 PM »
This thread was about "integrity".  Cheating is cheating regardless of the rationale behind it.  The game rules are clear.  If you have to cheat to compete then you have already lost.  And this goes for real life, too.  Karma is a *!^@) and prison is even worse ... just ask Bernie Madoff.

Just my .02 

exchlbg

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Re: Integrity of an Alliance
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2012, 11:01:00 PM »
They cheated and got caught. Something I would like to see in RL more often !
I like those childish reactions, wonderful demonstrations of state of minds.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 11:13:14 PM by exchlbg »

 

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