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Author Topic: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages  (Read 2183 times)

Online JumboShrimp

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Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« on: July 30, 2012, 11:46:18 PM »
1. cancel the "new operation discount"
2. everybody pays the same rate for slots.  There is no reason to charge "outside" airline only 1/100th rate for the slot when the airport is out of slots (or when the airports is not out of slots).
3. price of buying the last slot within its hour should be even more expensive
4. don't allow buying slots when in negative cash.
5. lower initial pax awarness of airline when RI=0 to no more than 20% per airline, slow down RI growth rate.  This will make the "strategy" of first 5 flights (~750 pax supply) to a single, slot constrained destination (LHR, etc) fail
6. if all else fails, don't allow initial HQ basing at top airports (until player reaches certain "achievement" level)
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,42020.0.html
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 12:03:32 AM by JumboShrimp »

Offline Airbus101

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 06:06:30 PM »

4. don't allow buying slots when in negative cash.




AMEN!!!!

Offline Airbus101

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 06:07:48 PM »
Fine Airlines $$$ that allow slots to expire....

consider it an adminstration Fee and/or contract breakage fee...

janesc

  • Former member
Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2012, 09:10:51 AM »
Think that idea would work maybe set a small -ve limit to allow some flex. 

Would the problem still not occur though after the first few game months? The issue seems to be that only a trickle of slots are released per real day (1 per hour per game).  This means that a player can wait over a real night to generate cash.  In the morning the strategy is hit F5 every minute until the slots appear, spend the cash saved, buy all the slots.  Then save up cash overnight and repeat.   Im not sure cash is 100% the issue, although I think it would defiantly help.

I like someones suggestion elsewhere of a bidding system (although I would imagine this would be complex to program).  Start the bidding at the current slot price and allow players to bid.  Open the bid over a large time window so that there is sufficient access to all players?

Offline Steve

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 07:25:12 PM »
Slots are released at random times of the day. They might be released when the player is asleep at night and someone somewhere where its day time might snag them instead.


Think that idea would work maybe set a small -ve limit to allow some flex. 

Would the problem still not occur though after the first few game months? The issue seems to be that only a trickle of slots are released per real day (1 per hour per game).  This means that a player can wait over a real night to generate cash.  In the morning the strategy is hit F5 every minute until the slots appear, spend the cash saved, buy all the slots.  Then save up cash overnight and repeat.   Im not sure cash is 100% the issue, although I think it would defiantly help.

I like someones suggestion elsewhere of a bidding system (although I would imagine this would be complex to program).  Start the bidding at the current slot price and allow players to bid.  Open the bid over a large time window so that there is sufficient access to all players?

schweizer

  • Former member
Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 08:28:14 AM »
Quote
I like someones suggestion elsewhere of a bidding system (although I would imagine this would be complex to program).  Start the bidding at the current slot price and allow players to bid.  Open the bid over a large time window so that there is sufficient access to all players?

Could also set it so that the person bidding can set an automatic "MAX" bid and as competitors bid for the slot his bid will increase slowly till the maximum set by the user. This would avoid issues if you notice a slot is open but you need to go out....

Offline Infinity

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2012, 09:19:30 AM »
I like someones suggestion elsewhere of a bidding system (although I would imagine this would be complex to program).  Start the bidding at the current slot price and allow players to bid.  Open the bid over a large time window so that there is sufficient access to all players?

I renewed that quite old idea in a current feature request:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,42145.0.html

Offline Sami

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 08:26:54 PM »
Btw. One possible rule change.

Local airlines at each airport are not allowed to control more than 70% of each hour's slots (all local airlines combined).

In other words if airport A has 10 slots per hour, local airlines would see this as 7 slots per hour, all others as 10 per hour. Relatively easy to code, and reduce the slot hogging of local based airlines, and giving others at least some sort of guaranteed slot quota, and also should not cause too big disadvantage to local airlines on thr other hand... Call it another anti monopoly rule if you like.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 08:50:08 PM »
All this makes airports with less slots much less attractive than airports with (nearly) unlimited slots.


Why don't skip the whole slot thing and make it unlimited? In reality they would simply build a new runway or whatever when slots run out.

Additionally to this maybe some kind of rule that makes sure all slots over the day are used.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 11:00:34 PM »
Btw. One possible rule change.

Local airlines at each airport are not allowed to control more than 70% of each hour's slots (all local airlines combined).

In other words if airport A has 10 slots per hour, local airlines would see this as 7 slots per hour, all others as 10 per hour. Relatively easy to code, and reduce the slot hogging of local based airlines, and giving others at least some sort of guaranteed slot quota, and also should not cause too big disadvantage to local airlines on thr other hand... Call it another anti monopoly rule if you like.

Maybe there should also be a similar cap (like 70% also) on all foreign airlines, to protect the local airlines?

Currently, in a slot-locked airport like LHR, the local airlines slot hog because they feel compelled to do so. Before all the slots are gobbled up by the hundreds of foreign airlines that want to fly to LHR, leaving the local airline unable to fly anywhere from its own HQ if it does not act quickly to "hoard" the slots first by flying swarms of cheap miniplanes, not on fake routes, but on short, second-tier routes--basically to get close to but cheating without actually cheating.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:04:25 PM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline schro

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 11:52:09 PM »
Btw. One possible rule change.

Local airlines at each airport are not allowed to control more than 70% of each hour's slots (all local airlines combined).

In other words if airport A has 10 slots per hour, local airlines would see this as 7 slots per hour, all others as 10 per hour. Relatively easy to code, and reduce the slot hogging of local based airlines, and giving others at least some sort of guaranteed slot quota, and also should not cause too big disadvantage to local airlines on thr other hand... Call it another anti monopoly rule if you like.

[-]

Seems rather unrealisitic and quite frustrating to me...

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2012, 12:48:35 AM »
Btw. One possible rule change.

Local airlines at each airport are not allowed to control more than 70% of each hour's slots (all local airlines combined).

In other words if airport A has 10 slots per hour, local airlines would see this as 7 slots per hour, all others as 10 per hour. Relatively easy to code, and reduce the slot hogging of local based airlines, and giving others at least some sort of guaranteed slot quota, and also should not cause too big disadvantage to local airlines on thr other hand... Call it another anti monopoly rule if you like.

I think we were doing really well on the slots with the changes that were implemented until the total slot count was reduced.  At this stage of MT6, airports such as AMS, CDG, FRA, LHR had 20 more slots than in MT7.

So all the improvements that were implemented as far as reducing the benefits of high frequency small planes, more expensive slots, no more slot purchases while in negative cash, all of it was eliminated by lower slot totals.

People hoard only things that are in short supply.  So short supply encourages hoarding.

(Re)-creating slot shortage in MT7 that encourages hoarding, and then thinking of new rules to reduce hoarding is just a wrong approach, IMO...

Talentz

  • Former member
Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2012, 06:18:23 AM »
Btw. One possible rule change.

Local airlines at each airport are not allowed to control more than 70% of each hour's slots (all local airlines combined).

In other words if airport A has 10 slots per hour, local airlines would see this as 7 slots per hour, all others as 10 per hour. Relatively easy to code, and reduce the slot hogging of local based airlines, and giving others at least some sort of guaranteed slot quota, and also should not cause too big disadvantage to local airlines on thr other hand... Call it another anti monopoly rule if you like.
[-] Seems rather unrealistic and quite frustrating to me...

Agreed. There's only a handful of airports that reach this stage... wouldn't city based demand largely fix this problem at those airports anyway...?




Talentz



brique

  • Former member
Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2012, 06:35:13 AM »
Re : the '70% max' idea

This would tend to wipe out a whole band of lesser airports as potential bases, thus forcing the players who wish to expand back into the larger ones, and thus increasing slot pressure in them:  lesser airports can be marginal prospects at best : reduce their effective capacity by 30% and they become uneconomical.

I reckon the main 'victims' of this idea would be smaller outfits operating domestic/regional out of smaller airports in smaller countries, who already are constrained enough by circumstance : adding a 30% reduction in available slots would have the effect of leaving such airports empty and only used by players flying in from slot-locked big airports on LH international flights... cos that's where all the players will end up basing.




Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2012, 07:53:54 AM »
[...]...wouldn't city based demand largely fix this problem at those airports anyway...?


Yeah.

Honestly instead of doctoring on such minor things over and over and over and over the whole problem should be solved.


I have to think at House MD I watched yesterday: "If you wake up and your wallpaper starts to melt, your curtains are gone and the water in the toilet boils - which problem do you solve first? NONE OF THEM! Because your house is on fire!"


The game is stable at this very moment. It could be at this development point for weeks or month until city based demand is done. If city based demand is made like we all hope, there is no (real) slot shortage anymore in the future because people build their own airport and don't simply occupy real world airports.


I don't know a single person in this game who doesn't look forward to city based demand but nobody ever complained he can't fly to a single airport.

In fact I had the problem several times I wasn't able to fill out the routes to airports like Hong Kong or Heathrow or even Milano or JFK because they are sometimes short on slots. But funny thing is, my airline still survived.

At the moment I'm flying out of Heathrow for the first time in my AWS career and it's no fun. It's like a damn job to always wake up and check for new slots. If the number of slots is not only decreased by a further amount (30%!!), it also gives free slots to every random joe in the gameworld, I can't believe somebody who has left a little bit of brain anywhere in his house would HQ at such an airport.



So, long text short:
Please stop putting time in minor changes of symptoms of a problem. Please change the underlying problem and implement city based demand, even it needs (much) more coding time. :/

Offline pascaly

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2012, 01:34:46 PM »
Gotta agree with Curse. There's only so many little fingers we can stick in the dike before we realise that the dam's busted.

Reducing slots to some players, making costs too high, this constant duct-taping over cracks; it's all just covering up the problem with no real apparent fix in sight.

 Also, I COMPLETELY disagree with the suggestion of making the cost of slots increase as their number decreases. You penalise players for something beyond their control ie: the order in which they choose to fly to a destination.




Offline Jona L.

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2012, 03:14:06 PM »
In reality they would simply build a new runway or whatever when slots run out.

LHR tries that since ages, but those goddamn citizens keep protesting... FRA is closed at night now (IRL) due to the 4th rwy built, so losing 7hrs (23-06) of operation for 15 more hourly slots. Massive hit for Cargo airlines, and for charter airlines (such as Condor, that used to have quite some flights departing 00-03)

There is a limit to slot growth, and there is no airport I know that forbids airlines to buy slots, because there are too many slots used by home carriers.. in fact, home carriers are usually favorized once slots open up (see BA in LHR).


Additionally by allowing max. 70% of slots used by home carriers, an airport seeming pretty open (i.e. 30% free) would turn out to be a disaster for any new starting airline there. If that would be excepted again: pascaly is right with his dike metaphor...

Keep it as is. (including the "new" no slots when out of money thing, keep that, too)

Offline RushmoreAir

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2012, 05:39:11 AM »
Btw. One possible rule change.

Local airlines at each airport are not allowed to control more than 70% of each hour's slots (all local airlines combined).

In other words if airport A has 10 slots per hour, local airlines would see this as 7 slots per hour, all others as 10 per hour. Relatively easy to code, and reduce the slot hogging of local based airlines, and giving others at least some sort of guaranteed slot quota, and also should not cause too big disadvantage to local airlines on thr other hand... Call it another anti monopoly rule if you like.

-1

This might work at top 20 airports, but for smaller airports where slots don't tend to be a problem (for the most part), it makes basing at medium size airports that much harder.

Offline sergio

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Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 12:06:10 PM »

AMEN!!!!

it was suprise when in last beginners world this did not work. i wanted to try it again.

ahh, it was so nice - lease as many palnes as possble, wait, then lease more, and only then start new route. bang - you have not 1-2 acf, but 5-10 at the same time. t was grea to fly a flock of atr from hong kong to taiwan. then as soon as possible take 747, make it pure first and business class.

exchlbg

  • Former member
Re: Ideas to alleviate slot shortages
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 02:20:03 PM »
Great that Sami stopped this nonsense being an option.

 

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