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Author Topic: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!  (Read 3929 times)

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2012, 06:52:48 PM »
Hopefully, some solution will be found for slots that is based on economics, rather than being online a lot

The increased upfront sot cost helps slow down slot acquisition speed, but this slow down is barely perceptible at the big slot constrained airports.  The slots run out quickly.  The rate at which slots are added is far slower than the rate at which the slots can be acquired.

Not only by up to 7 airlines at the airport, but also 100s of airlines outside, trying to fly into these popular airports.

How about charging airlines flying fro outside the same high rate as the airline inside?  That could result in some slowdown.

Airline inside one of the slot constrained airports has to pay now up to $2 million per set of slots.  An airline outside can buy them for maybe $2,000...

There are feature requests on "terminals" being implemented, which would be an economical way to do this.  Each airline based at an airport would have a terminal with x number of slots.  They can pay to expand their terminal and slot pool, but there are also terminals reserved for inbound aircraft from other hubs/cities so there will always be an opportunity for competition.  Thus if you are at LHR, there will always be slots available for competition to fly into LHR, but not necessarily for those airlines based at LHR to fly out.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2012, 06:53:29 PM »
Exactly... travian days for me... (same thing but with the cry of "farms!")


Now that I don't have so much free time as I used to have, I simply changed to a less time demanding game: AWS... (Instead of moaning on travian)

I am a Travian "veteran" as well, and the requireent of online presence was killing me and I stopped playing it.

There was another thing that was bad at travian:  You had to be online and you had to continuously do things.

At AWS, quite a few things chaged so that you don't have to be online as much.  And areas where you benefit by being online, you don't have to do as much.

For example with UM calls, it helps you to be online, but, to spread your calls, all you need to do is to click 1 butto every 35 minutes to get max benefit from available calls...

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2012, 06:59:53 PM »
I think that was already talked...

1st- City based demand... when you can actually go and do a HUB anywhere in the world... (right now the busiest AWS airports are main airlines HUBs... that will change radically with city based demand where FRA or ATL for example won't have anywhere close the demand it has now). it's on development

2nd. Slot leasing - The cost increases as more players leases new slots (no limits and airlines based discount).. Sami's opposed

Good post.  I agree with oth points.

City based demand should greatly reduce importance of current slot constrained airports.  Also, for City ased Demand to be fully dynamic, the slots should grow ased on demand.  Some mechanics can be introduce to charge airlines an "Airport expansion fees" (= slot rental fee) in order for the slots to grow.

There are Airport expansion fees in real world, BTW.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2012, 07:09:25 PM »
You really can't think of alternative methods?  There are plenty of other methods that would actually force players to make a decision.  I haven't played enough to know what is the best solution, but I will throw out some ideas, just to show that there are alternatives.  

1. Have players bid on slots.  You want to go to LHR?  The current price is not 1.8 Million for 7 slots, but 15 million.  Forces players to choose between expanding to top airports and expanding quickly.

2. Get rid of the slot ramp up over the first 5 years of the game and instead start the game with more slots.  Everyone expands rapidly and then just has to wait for the very occasional increase/bankruptcies.  It makes it much more difficult for airlines not starting day 1, but has a more equal distribution of slots for day 1 airlines.

3.  Limit the percentage of total slots any one airline can have, as well as the percentage of slots for each hour.  The limits could be different based on whether the airport was your home base, a secondary base, a domestic route, or an international route.  This wouldn't "solve" the problem, but would limit the number of airports affected by it.

4.  The slot waiting list you proposed, augmented by a limitation on the number of slots you could request.  For example, if you are limited to requesting 28 slots, you could request HOU/DAL/MDW/ANC and get them instantly (or within the week), or you could request ORD/LHR/NRT/CDG and wait months for each of them...or maybe you would try something in between.

So, I'm based at XYZ : I fill up my slot allocation and sit there looking at empty slots and unfilled demand until my competitors fill it for me? Bidding on slots? Well, that could work, until the major incumbent just outbids everyone else and we hear the cry of 'unfair, how do we compete with them?' . More slots at the start? Just re-positioning the problem, LHR could have 3 times the slots and they would still be filled by day 2... and it doesnt address how the slots released from Bk's or  growth get to be offered.

So, finally, we come to your last suggestion, which has merits but again : waiting list means you have to be online to join it : further, limit the number of 'bids' and what happens if they are all queued, you cant then open any route, order a plane, plan schedules until 'ping', a slot is granted : now, schedule the rest of the flights for that plane.... 7-day skeds will be a wonder to perform that way...

beleive me, I want a solution as much as you.. I think the whole issue is way complex and changing things to resolve 'justifiable complaint A' is no progress if it merely produces 'justifiable complaint B' instead...

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2012, 07:37:45 PM »
I love the endless slot whine threads....   I think there are like 10 demotivators for that one.  

Folks, if you base in LHR, understand EVERYONE is going to fly to your base first.   They all know that you'll quickly fill up and have little chance to compete against them.  

The major increase to slot costs (increasing in price for each one) helped this.  People will bankrupt.  Use this time to invest in new aircraft.  Airlines will fail....   and I guarantee many of those have traffic to or from LHR.   Just be ready to pounce.   Flying shorthaul 4-5x daily simply isn't an efficient use of that airport.

janesc

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2012, 07:40:05 PM »
I think a combination of some of those suggested could be an answer.  Probably with some additional rules added the make them more "fool proof".

The current system works fairly well once the world is up and running.  The problem seems to be the initial period.  

I like the ideal of limiting/allocating a percentage of slots available to airlines at different times of day.  Allowances for new entrants and externals would also be interesting.  If an airline does not use his allocation by a set time maybe they could then be put back into the pool for the other airlines to get?   But maybe after the initial two/three years this restriction could be filtered out into the current system that way you get fair competition at the start (people who need slots get them and those that do not get passed to those who do!).  Again I'm sure there are lots of holes in this but it just needs a bit of lateral thinking!

Like you said Brique people didn't like the use of frequency as a tactic.  But at least with that you can adapt and fight back yet people wanted that to change.  The refresh 24/7 slot strategy however has no viable counter tactic so I would think change would be even more warranted.

mavi

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2012, 07:43:24 PM »
So, I'm based at XYZ : I fill up my slot allocation and sit there looking at empty slots and unfilled demand until my competitors fill it for me? Bidding on slots? Well, that could work, until the major incumbent just outbids everyone else and we hear the cry of 'unfair, how do we compete with them?' . More slots at the start? Just re-positioning the problem, LHR could have 3 times the slots and they would still be filled by day 2... and it doesnt address how the slots released from Bk's or  growth get to be offered.

So, finally, we come to your last suggestion, which has merits but again : waiting list means you have to be online to join it : further, limit the number of 'bids' and what happens if they are all queued, you cant then open any route, order a plane, plan schedules until 'ping', a slot is granted : now, schedule the rest of the flights for that plane.... 7-day skeds will be a wonder to perform that way...

beleive me, I want a solution as much as you.. I think the whole issue is way complex and changing things to resolve 'justifiable complaint A' is no progress if it merely produces 'justifiable complaint B' instead...

I was very up front when I said that I was not proposing "the" solution.  I am only trying to show you that there alternative ways to assign slots, other than your sarcastic alphabetical solution.  I don't think hitting refresh should be a major element of strategy in a business sim.  Period.  So I think any alternative will be superior, although definitely not without its owns problems.  

I'm doing quite fine on slots in the current system.  I got 21 LHR slots last refresh, and IAD is not in any danger of being slot constrained anytime soon.  My very unrealistic LHR slot grab is something that gives me an unfair boost against competitors at my home airport, 1 of whom is definitely outplaying me, and another who is arguably doing so.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2012, 07:59:04 PM »
I agree with you, FBW, there is no counter to  some-one being on 24/7 refreshing until slots appear (well, there are the logs which Sami can check and chastise anyone excessively doing so).

I'm just a bit cynical about this issue : whatever way its done, some-one (who didnt get a slot) will demand a change to the system where, surprise surprise, they will get a slot : and then the person who now doesnt get the slot will, surprise surprise, demand a  further change which, surprise, surprise, has the totally unexpected outcome of... they get a slot.

We could have Sami working 24/7 re-coding this every two days and guess what : the ones who cant get a slot will keep on wanting more changes to ensure they... get a slot.

The only solution is to offer as many slots as people want : then they will complain about air traffic delays instead cos of 400 planes trying to take-off and 400 planes trying to land every minute...

I'm going to bed... cue : appearance of much sought-after 6.00 slot 5 mins after I start snoring...... its just soooooooooo unfair!

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2012, 08:02:39 PM »
I was very up front when I said that I was not proposing "the" solution.  I am only trying to show you that there alternative ways to assign slots, other than your sarcastic alphabetical solution.  I don't think hitting refresh should be a major element of strategy in a business sim.  Period.  So I think any alternative will be superior, although definitely not without its owns problems.  

I'm doing quite fine on slots in the current system.  I got 21 LHR slots last refresh, and IAD is not in any danger of being slot constrained anytime soon.  My very unrealistic LHR slot grab is something that gives me an unfair boost against competitors at my home airport, 1 of whom is definitely outplaying me, and another who is arguably doing so.

yes, the alphabetical one was sarcastic : and just as 'fair' and 'equitable' as the other alternatives on offer : they all require the removal of an on-line players ability to do something when other players are not on-line : which, to me, is kinda strange for an 24/7 on-line game... isnt it?

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2012, 08:04:23 PM »
yes, the alphabetical one was sarcastic : and just as 'fair' and 'equitable' as the other alternatives on offer : they all require the removal of an on-line players ability to do something when other players are not on-line : which, to me, is kinda strange for an 24/7 on-line game... isnt it?

oh, and the alternatives also require you to refresh regularily to see if anything new has happened yet too : so, where is the progress in that ?

mavi

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2012, 08:09:35 PM »
yes, the alphabetical one was sarcastic : and just as 'fair' and 'equitable' as the other alternatives on offer : they all require the removal of an on-line players ability to do something when other players are not on-line : which, to me, is kinda strange for an 24/7 on-line game... isnt it?

And here I thought we were playing a business sim.  My mistake.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2012, 08:23:31 PM »
And here I thought we were playing a business sim.  My mistake.

I know, I thought it was an MMORTS.... still could be worse... at least there are no elves and warlocks wandering around ::)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2012, 08:25:48 PM »
Looking at LHR, CDG, FRA, looks like 7 airlines based in each.  The airlines at their home base hav a combined bumber of slots between 25% and 30%.  These airlines are paying $1.5 to $2 million rate per set of slots.

70% - 75% of slots are owned by airlines based outside of these airports.  These airlines are paying somewhere around 1/100th or 1/1000th price for these slots.

There is, IMO, absolutely no reason to give these slots away for next to nothing.  If something has a very high value (slot at LHR), giving it away for free or for next to nothing is certainly not helping anything, it is actually making things worse...

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2012, 08:27:44 PM »
And here I thought we were playing a business sim.  My mistake.

I don't know what kind of bussiness are you used to...

Go over NYSE and moan about that guy over there yelled before you and bought the stocks cheaper than you...


Also, as a bussiness owner, you are required to work as much time as you possibly can... Another bussiness owner who works less than you, will likely fail...


You wanna be in a top4 airport but playing only a few hours a day... It does not make any sense...

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2012, 08:30:20 PM »
Looking at LHR, CDG, FRA, looks like 7 airlines based in each.  The airlines at their home base hav a combined bumber of slots between 25% and 30%.  These airlines are paying $1.5 to $2 million rate per set of slots.

6 at FRA... One already Bankrupted... (sadly I was already in negative when that happened and couldn't get his slots... =S)...

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2012, 08:36:46 PM »


I'm going to bed... cue : appearance of much sought-after 6.00 slot 5 mins after I start snoring...... its just soooooooooo unfair!

heheheh... fooled the evil quark-monsters running the server .. I didn't go to bed and lo and behold.... the 06.00 slot showed up.... mine, allllll mine.... ;D

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2012, 08:37:31 PM »
6 at FRA... One already Bankrupted... (sadly I was already in negative when that happened and couldn't get his slots... =S)...

You actually CAN get the slots when you are in negative cash.  But you need to have aircraft to which to assigned the routes to.
  
Ability to buy slots when you have no cash certainly contributes to the problem of slots disappearing quickly...

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2012, 08:42:13 PM »
You actually CAN get the slots when you are in negative cash.  But you need to have aircraft to which to assigned the routes to.
  
Ability to buy slots when you have no cash certainly contributes to the problem of slots disappearing quickly...

I didn't want to push it further... I was already on 1.5 weeks profit negative and all my planes on order were already scheduled... It would had take me 3weeks to actually order another plane plus two more of waiting the aircraft (assuming I'd have found one quickly in the used market).


I think that's a good feature.. Imagine that after refreshing all day, you came a across a slot increase, but (for x reason) you don't have the cash to buy them... that would be a really disapointment.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2012, 08:42:55 PM »
You actually CAN get the slots when you are in negative cash.  But you need to have aircraft to which to assigned the routes to.
  
Ability to buy slots when you have no cash certainly contributes to the problem of slots disappearing quickly...

True... but only until you are so far into the red.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2012, 08:44:08 PM »
I didn't want to push it further... I was already on 1.5 weeks profit negative and all my planes on order were already scheduled... It would had take me 3weeks to actually order another plane plus two more of waiting the aircraft (assuming I'd have found one quickly in the used market).


I think that's a good feature.. Imagine that after refreshing all day, you came a across a slot increase, but (for x reason) you don't have the cash to buy them... that would be a really disapointment.

Well, it would reward players who play more conservatively, and have cash on hand to buy the slots.

Also, the first guy who notices the slots could only buy so many (limited by his cash) and there would be more slot left for other players...

 

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