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Author Topic: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!  (Read 3932 times)

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2012, 05:10:59 PM »
By the way.

I have the very same slot issue at the airport I chose to base myself at, which is something that I didn't really expect as its not a major (big enough though), so I have had to do things a bit different than planned to keep going ahead.

The big problem I see is that the other 3 airlines based there don't seem to have a weak link in their strategies so I can't see who is going to fall over so the others can grab some slots.
Maybe I should just ask them to leave...and see if that works :-)

But...I will enjoy the challenge.

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2012, 05:16:06 PM »
Maybe I should just ask them to leave...and see if that works :-)

LOL... I guess this threads here replace the "please don't kill me and steal my resources" kind of messages in other games.. or "your constant attacking are screwing my game and I can't play nor grow"...

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2012, 05:22:49 PM »
I have the very same slot issue at the airport I chose to base myself at, which is something that I didn't really expect as its not a major (big enough though), so I have had to do things a bit different than planned to keep going ahead.


Barcelona is listed as the 7th largest airport in Europe and 29th largest in the world.  Any airports in the top 100 you should expect to have some serious competition, especially in a 650 player game.  I'm at Cincinnati which is #96 in the world and there are 3 airlines based there, but thankfully due to the massive commuter demand in the real world there are plenty of slots for us all to use for fighting over the mainline routes.

mavi

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2012, 05:26:08 PM »
Mavi....you missed the point a bit.
I did not say that you should be online 24/7 as that is the persons choice.

What I did say is that if you chose a strategy that includes picking a top 4 airport to base yourself at and it also happens to have one of the best players in the game there (as all top airports have) then your strategy should also include the fact that you have sufficient time to spend online to ensure that your selected strategy works...if not...then you chose the wrong strategy.

Do you think a football team takes exactly the same game play into each game and doesn't study their opponents strengths and weaknesses and devise a game day strategy based on this?

Too many people on here chose an incorrect strategy for them and then complain that the game needs changing instead of working with the cards dealt to you.

Also...can you explain to me why a person that spends more time online (their choice) should not have an advantage?
Example - I have read all the posts on the trail MT game that was played to try to pick up some tips on how to approach MT7 ...yet I see some now post complaints that if they read the posts they would have avoided the issue they complained about.
In my books someone who is prepared to do more work should earn more reward.


Kadachiman,

With all due respect, it is you who missed my point, not the other way around.  I fully grasped your argument that if you should factor in how much time you want to spend on the game when you choose where to base your airline.

My point is that this is a business simulation, and it should be time spent on strategy not time spent hitting refresh that determines the ultimate winners of top airports.

I actually like your football team analagy as it is my point precisely: a successful football team does spend the time studying “their opponents strengths and weaknesses and devis[ing] a game day strategy based on this.”  And that is what should make a successful airline here.  Last I checked football teams don’t spend their time driving past empty stadiums to see if the doors happen to be open at the presise moment they drive by so they can run in and claim the stadium for their game.

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2012, 05:31:21 PM »
Barcelona is listed as the 7th largest airport in Europe and 29th largest in the world.  Any airports in the top 100 you should expect to have some serious competition, especially in a 650 player game.  I'm at Cincinnati which is #96 in the world and there are 3 airlines based there, but thankfully due to the massive commuter demand in the real world there are plenty of slots for us all to use for fighting over the mainline routes.

That is what I get for not knowing Airports, Planes, etc   :-[
I am not a plane fan - in fact I wouldn't even know what I am flying in most of the time as it gets me from A to B for the price I am prepared to pay, and my knowledge of airports is no better.

But I enjoy this game as it is a great online strategy game regardless of what it is based on.

mavi

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2012, 05:33:09 PM »
Anyone else see the irony in this : how often is 'real life' appealed to as reason to change some aspect of the game and here we have an aspect which is as 'real life' as it gets : slots are gold dust, especially at major airports : just google on the subject and BA's stranglehold on slots at LHR and the current argy-bargy between the airlines concerning the now-taken-over BMI's slots there.

If you are going to base at a major airport and tap into all those fat routes, then slots, thats getting the right ones or just any ones, and being able to pay the price for them, is a key part of the strategy required to succeed there.

And if the early strategy required is to grab them while they are there to be taken, and later, by putting in the hours, grabbing any that are released due to BK's or growth ; well, that's the strategy required too.

And if you cant manage that strategy, due to time or other constraints, well that's kinda tough but that's how it is.

Hitting refresh is not a "strategy."  And I believe money had more to do with BA getting BMI's slots, not the fact that BA happened to be the only airline online when BMI went bust.

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2012, 05:50:24 PM »
And I believe money had more to do with BA getting BMI's slots, not the fact that BA happened to be the only airline online when BMI went bust.

Nor did Willie Walsh hit F5 all the time ;D

janesc

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2012, 06:07:33 PM »
Im really sorry guys I think this thread has wondered completely from my point.

I am seeing a similar responces which are repeated and missing the point

Go to a secondary base if your are going to start there you will run out of slots: Yes understood that when I set out! No problem!  

I am crying about steeling my resources: No never bothered about others having more slots than me either, I am at several slot constrained airports in BW! I grew at a nice steady pace in BW and intended to do the same I have no particular interest in a mad dash for the market share - this seemed to be the end of most of my previous competition in BW!  

Best players only at the hubs: If you like, but not relevant! If I go bust on that account fair enough I have no issue there! Its not a killing each other game - its an airline business simulation!  Are they always best players or the ones who can sit there all day long?

You don't have then time don't pick a hub: I am on here a lot on my days off and on and have repeated that over and over and over! Please don't say I need to spend more time on here - I spend hours on here! This is no issue, sitting clicking slots page is an issue.

If you want to be on 24/7 thats fine I have no problem with that. However this is a game (supposed to be for all) and at any level, no game I have ever played is designed in mind to favour 24/7 game play to be top dog!  In my opinion this is not healthy,discourages competition, discourages strategy based upon price, CI, service, flying program etc and benefits the click refresh as much as I can until I get something - if you get ahead with that fine, but I would not call you a master of strategy.

Brique, you mentioned the reality of slots.  I am not under any illusion of the reality of slots constraints, I work in aviation.  Like you said a valid tactic for me at this point will be to wait/hope for another operator to go bust!  I don't believe airlines like BA however ring Airport Co ordination 10 times a day on the off chance a slot becomes available. I can hear the conversation.

 "sorry Virgin you can't have one because BA rang 60 times a day and took the only one, try ringing more tomorrow.... oh you can't you have a couple of other things on, oh well tough"  It just doesn't happen! BA succeed on their business strategy, brand, price, service and route network/alliance! They would not be granted every slot that popped up at LHR! Infact in the BMI merger they were forced to give some slots away due to competition regulation.

I hoped that more experience players in MT would find some sense in this argument but whatever logic I seem to use seems to be flawed in some way out of a reluctance to find a better system, everyone here must work in aviation.  It seems much simpler to say don't start there, your to new, to inexperienced.  Come on surely the only natural growth slots being hogged by the people who can sit ALL DAY and click is not the way forward for REAL competition?

3 mins all slots gone in 1440 minutes in the real time day! even if I clicked refresh every 9 minutes I would still only have a 33% chance on seeing some new slots and 9 minutes is a lot!  



brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2012, 06:10:31 PM »
hitting refresh IS a strategy : not one I, or many others like, but its a way to get a task done : therefore its a strategy. Flying 30x F27's on a route is a strategy ; also unpopular, but its still a strategy.

I used BA at LHR as an example of RL : for various reasons, mostly a legacy issue from the BOAC/BEA merge, it dominates LHR. But it could be any other dominant airline at any other major capitals airport. The issue is there are more airlines wanting to fly than slots to let them (as in AWS), so any slots that come free, or might come free, (as with the demise of BMI) are fought over with the usual demands for fairness or some other way of deciding matters which cant ever address the basic issue, there is not enough to go around to please everybody, so any allocation system will p*ss off far more than it pleases, and thats inevitable.

I dont want to come down harsh, but basing in a major airport, up against experienced players, is a tough issue : the problems are great, and so are the rewards for success. But actually, the problems are not unique, its a matter of scale, mostly.

I run a pathetically small mini-airline in the boondocks : guess what, I'm waiting on slots too, if I want to fly at the best times or squeeze in that extra flight that makes the profit for the day.

I do wish you luck, its a brain-clench of a game at times, but one of the better ones around.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2012, 06:11:58 PM »
Nor did Willie Walsh hit F5 all the time ;D

Nope, they are just a major player in the private company that allocates the slots at LHR : move along, no conspiracy here folks... ;D

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2012, 06:20:32 PM »
'3 mins all slots gone in 1440 minutes in the real time day! even if I clicked refresh every 9 minutes I would still only have a 33% chance on seeing some new slots and 9 minutes is a lot! '


Its a pain, yes : but what's the alternative method that would NOT favour some-one on-line longer than another player?

ANY alternative method needs you to be on-line to claim the slot when it is released : you have to click 'Mine!' at some point before some-one else does, even with a queueing system, you have to be there before some-one else to stake a place in that queue.

What other method is there : pre-register an interest then wait for free slots to be allocated by lottery or other random method ? Well, luck can be a strategy, I suppose.

How about allocated them alphabetically... oh no... Aaaaardvark Air will win that one...

What other way is there that doesn't advantage one player over another?

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2012, 06:26:38 PM »
LOL... I guess this threads here replace the "please don't kill me and steal my resources" kind of messages in other games.. or "your constant attacking are screwing my game and I can't play nor grow"...

The servers I played on, such messages generally resulted in a full-on alliance onslaught with the cry of 'free food!' ringing forth.... ah, evony-days....

mavi

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2012, 06:31:29 PM »
hitting refresh IS a strategy : not one I, or many others like, but its a way to get a task done : therefore its a strategy. Flying 30x F27's on a route is a strategy ; also unpopular, but its still a strategy.

In the basest sense of the word, yes, hitting refresh is a strategy, as it is a means to accomplish a goal.  But if you want to use that broad definition, then just about everything is a strategy.  I very strategically tie my garbage bag when I take it from the trash to the garbage chute in order to avoid getting garbage everywhere as I carry it.  I think you know what I meant, but I am not going to engage you in a dictionary war in any case.

Quote
I dont want to come down harsh, but basing in a major airport, up against experienced players, is a tough issue : the problems are great, and so are the rewards for success. But actually, the problems are not unique, its a matter of scale, mostly.

I don't disagree with you at all.  I just don't think hitting refresh should be a decisive factor.  It should be that you will be up against players with great fleet utilization who fly at peak times and engage you in price wars.  I don't see the need to short circuit the real strategy potential that this game has to offer with an F5 requirement.

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2012, 06:38:15 PM »
Best players only at the hubs: If you like, but not relevant! If I go bust on that account fair enough I have no issue there! Its not a killing each other game - its an airline business simulation!  Are they always best players or the ones who can sit there all day long?

Best players = Inteligent people who can sit there all day long.


Average players = GROUP1: Inteligent people who logs in a few hours a day
                         GROUP2: Dumb people who can sit there all day long.


Worse players = Dumb people who logs in a few hours a day.



Every online game you'll play will be like that, and if AWS would not be like this I would actually leave...

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2012, 06:42:12 PM »
Hopefully, some solution will be found for slots that is based on economics, rather than being online a lot

The increased upfront sot cost helps slow down slot acquisition speed, but this slow down is barely perceptible at the big slot constrained airports.  The slots run out quickly.  The rate at which slots are added is far slower than the rate at which the slots can be acquired.

Not only by up to 7 airlines at the airport, but also 100s of airlines outside, trying to fly into these popular airports.

How about charging airlines flying fro outside the same high rate as the airline inside?  That could result in some slowdown.

Airline inside one of the slot constrained airports has to pay now up to $2 million per set of slots.  An airline outside can buy them for maybe $2,000...

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2012, 06:43:58 PM »
The servers I played on, such messages generally resulted in a full-on alliance onslaught with the cry of 'free food!' ringing forth.... ah, evony-days....

Exactly... travian days for me... (same thing but with the cry of "farms!")


Now that I don't have so much free time as I used to have, I simply changed to a less time demanding game: AWS... (Instead of moaning on travian)

Offline AUpilot77

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2012, 06:48:17 PM »
It really is frustrating seeing this many complaints about how "my airline is struggling" or "I don't have time to put into this game so give me free stuff and limit the guys who are competitive."

Personally, I think we should have separate game worlds for each scenario.  One, with people who want to create rules to lessen the domination of the game (to make it easier for people who have less time), and one where AirwaySim's elite and most experienced players can have an all out competition.  No rules against over-supply, no rules against trying to intentionally muscle out another airline etc.

There is a constant tug-of-war against the two sides.  Personally, I'd rather play with the best players here and have a cut-throat type of competition.  In no way am I one of the best here.. I'd call myself a medium player at best, but I have a lot more fun when I'm competing against other airlines instead of "trying to play nice so I don't get kicked out" kind of thing.  :-\

mavi

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2012, 06:48:57 PM »
What other method is there : pre-register an interest then wait for free slots to be allocated by lottery or other random method ? Well, luck can be a strategy, I suppose.

How about allocated them alphabetically... oh no... Aaaaardvark Air will win that one...

What other way is there that doesn't advantage one player over another?

You really can't think of alternative methods?  There are plenty of other methods that would actually force players to make a decision.  I haven't played enough to know what is the best solution, but I will throw out some ideas, just to show that there are alternatives.  

1. Have players bid on slots.  You want to go to LHR?  The current price is not 1.8 Million for 7 slots, but 15 million.  Forces players to choose between expanding to top airports and expanding quickly.

2. Get rid of the slot ramp up over the first 5 years of the game and instead start the game with more slots.  Everyone expands rapidly and then just has to wait for the very occasional increase/bankruptcies.  It makes it much more difficult for airlines not starting day 1, but has a more equal distribution of slots for day 1 airlines.

3.  Limit the percentage of total slots any one airline can have, as well as the percentage of slots for each hour.  The limits could be different based on whether the airport was your home base, a secondary base, a domestic route, or an international route.  This wouldn't "solve" the problem, but would limit the number of airports affected by it.

4.  The slot waiting list you proposed, augmented by a limitation on the number of slots you could request.  For example, if you are limited to requesting 28 slots, you could request HOU/DAL/MDW/ANC and get them instantly (or within the week), or you could request ORD/LHR/NRT/CDG and wait months for each of them...or maybe you would try something in between.

Offline ezzeqiel

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Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2012, 06:49:13 PM »
Hopefully, some solution will be found for slots that is based on economics, rather than being online a lot

I think that was already talked...

1st- City based demand... when you can actually go and do a HUB anywhere in the world... (right now the busiest AWS airports are main airlines HUBs... that will change radically with city based demand where FRA or ATL for example won't have anywhere close the demand it has now). it's on development

2nd. Slot leasing - The cost increases as more players leases new slots (no limits and airlines based discount).. Sami's opposed

brique

  • Former member
Re: Slots - How I am suppose to get any?!
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2012, 06:49:54 PM »
I dont like continual refeshing to hunt down planes on the market or slots : its just that I don't see any other way of handling that : the plane markets have to be refreshed at some point, either fixed or random : the slots update ( or are released from BK's ) at a fixed point or randomly : how else can they appear for you to claim them? How else can you find out they are even there to be claimed yet?

Another issue is that its a world-wide player base, with the full range of time-zones : how do you accommodate that : whats lunch for me is some gawd-awful hour for another, and vice-versa. So, having a daily 'land-rush' type system at say 0900UTC will just bring complaints from those where being on-line at 0800UTC is staying up half the night. Move it to 15.00UTC, ooops, thats bad for another time-zone, and so on...

Its all very well being unhappy with how it is currently handled : but what alternative is there that doesnt just shift the unhappiness around and doesnt resolve what cant be resolved anyway : too many peeps want too few slots?

 

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