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Author Topic: Business seats in small aircrafts  (Read 1918 times)

Offline Beni

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Business seats in small aircrafts
« on: June 07, 2012, 10:52:57 PM »
Hi, I have been trying to start a kind of "luxury" short range and small planes airline in order to fly small routes only with business and first class seats. I have been surprised when lookin in the used market I saw that the smallest plane allowed to use business seats is the TU134.

Is there any "rule" that avoid small planes to be fitted with business seats? I have been thinking in 15-30 seats planes as Fairchild or Embraer. Even the Yak 40 is not allowed to have business seats.

Thanks

Offline Troxartas86

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2012, 07:54:46 AM »
This was exploited heavily in the past and so is disallowed.

Offline Beni

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2012, 08:17:50 AM »
Ok... thanks.

Anyway I dont understand why this kind of "luxury" airline can be considered a kind of "exploit". I dont see any rule violation flying a business class only.

Offline Troxartas86

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2012, 01:17:21 PM »
You'll have to ask some more veteran players about that. I only know how it is, not why.

Offline Sami

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2012, 01:49:10 PM »
15 or 30 seaters do not have business class level seats available in real life, so neither here... (And it has been like that always, there has not been any "fixes" related to this)

Online Emaw Jones

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2012, 04:07:54 PM »
This might be a good place to ask this, only becuase its relevant.

Has the simulation ever had Learjet, Gulfstream, or related aircraft available?  Certainly if someone wanted to create an airline on the level being discussed on this thread, those would be the product lines to consider.

This is not even meant as a suggestion, just kinda wanting to see if that conversation is viable.


Offline Sami

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2012, 04:08:29 PM »
No, business jets will not be included.. Whole different business.

Offline Beni

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2012, 04:21:47 PM »
Ok Sami, thanks for the answer but the reason that in RL there is no small luxury airlines is a poor one becouse we have here many things that are different than RL and becouse I can buy business seats in the real company Air Nostrum (Iberia regional) flying in a ATR or a CRJ200. Even I have flyed in business seats in a Saab 340 of the defunct spanish company Lagun Air. Business seats are a reality in the regional companies.

In game, I cant see any "exploit" if I choose to fly the route LHR-CDG in a single business seat configuration with a 30 seats prop or a small jet.

Offline AndiD

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2012, 05:11:49 PM »
I think you can put business seats in everything > 50 seats (I fly a few in selected CV-440s in JA and flew them in CRJ100s, too).

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2012, 02:42:42 AM »
In game, I cant see any "exploit" if I choose to fly the route LHR-CDG in a single business seat configuration with a 30 seats prop or a small jet.

The demand is only approx 32 pax per day in this class...so even on the largest route available to you this would not seem to be a viable option?
You will be serving max demand with 'one plane one flight' and there goes all your frequency which is the 'all important' in this game.

Offline Beni

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2012, 10:53:38 PM »
In game, I cant see any "exploit" if I choose to fly the route LHR-CDG in a single business seat configuration with a 30 seats prop or a small jet.

The demand is only approx 32 pax per day in this class...so even on the largest route available to you this would not seem to be a viable option?
You will be serving max demand with 'one plane one flight' and there goes all your frequency which is the 'all important' in this game.

Im sorry but I see 100 daily pax in business class from LHR to CDG and 120 daily ones from LHR to FRA for example. If I chose a 30 seats prop (SAAB 340 for example) it will mean 17-20? seats in business class so I could fly 3-4 daily flight without reaching the maxumum pax.

The tourist seats for the route LHR-CDG are around 1500 daily and there are more than 3000 daily seats offered in game, so... really do you think that my idea is not a good business??

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2012, 12:45:58 AM »
15 or 30 seaters do not have business class level seats available in real life, so neither here... (And it has been like that always, there has not been any "fixes" related to this)

What was the mechanism for fixing the "magic carpet" exploit?

Offline Sigma

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2012, 03:50:48 AM »
What was the mechanism for fixing the "magic carpet" exploit?

The "Magic Carpet" exploit was buying a plane on Day 1, converting it to all C/F, and throwing it on high-dollar international routes.

You'd make HUGE sums of money, which would then allow you to borrow even larger sums of money, and your growth would be immense.

As a fix, it was made so that C/F pax are very sensitive to Route Image.  So you can't do that right from the start.  As far as I know, you can still do this later one in the game if you wanted once you have a high RI, but I've never tried it to see.

Offline EsquireFlyer

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2012, 05:59:39 AM »
The "Magic Carpet" exploit was buying a plane on Day 1, converting it to all C/F, and throwing it on high-dollar international routes.

You'd make HUGE sums of money, which would then allow you to borrow even larger sums of money, and your growth would be immense.

As a fix, it was made so that C/F pax are very sensitive to Route Image.  So you can't do that right from the start.  As far as I know, you can still do this later one in the game if you wanted once you have a high RI, but I've never tried it to see.

Oh! So you can still do magic carpets after building up route image on a normal plane?

So I can fly an all C/F Concorde and..break even?

brique

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2012, 06:40:52 AM »
Oh! So you can still do magic carpets after building up route image on a normal plane?

So I can fly an all C/F Concorde and..break even?

It's a 'magic' carpet... not a 'miracle' one....  8)

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2012, 11:45:38 AM »
As a fix, it was made so that C/F pax are very sensitive to Route Image.  So you can't do that right from the start.  As far as I know, you can still do this later one in the game if you wanted once you have a high RI, but I've never tried it to see.

No, impossible.

Oh! So you can still do magic carpets after building up route image on a normal plane?

So I can fly an all C/F Concorde and..break even?

Not possible either. You need to have at least as many Y seats as you have C/F, in order to sell any of the C/F-seats. I've been experimenting with this shortly after the magic carpets were 'forbidden'/made impossible. Having a CI of 90, and a RI of 100, I still needed 50% Y seats, in order to get C and F sold. Whereas you also need more C than F seats, because F seats are also sensitive of C-class.

Apparently this kindof destroys the margins of the CONC... having yet been the only player to operate them at a profit ever, it only worked from LHR with a seating of only C/F class. (not mentioning the details, as this is still a company secret ;) ). Since these configs are made impossible, which does not mean technically impossible, you can still config your plane that way, but LFs end up between 0 and 10%, it has only hardly been possible to turn in profits on owned CONCs, not even talking about leased ones ::) .

I am still good with the change made, as it tended to be abused a lot in prior games, where it was still possible. With all C/F seats a LHR based airline in a DotM game could pull in 1-1.5M/week on a 707-320B just flying to JFK and coming back. This lead to rapid expansions of such airlines, which then a lot later would start carrying eco passengers, and would already be ruling the airport from early off, making it impossible to start up against them.

cheers,
Jona L.

brique

  • Former member
Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2012, 12:44:21 PM »
thanks Jona, your post explained a lot and answered a few of my questions on the subject :

I'm using the last knockings of BW#17 to experiment a bit with seating profiles to see if I can mop-up a few lower demand routes which are just over my main fleets range horizon, and hoping to use any business traffic resulting to make the numbers add-up.

Maybe the lessons learned will help me when I move up to play with the big-boys or just prove that some routes are just best left untapped.

Enjoying the game and would like to state my appreciation for all the good advice and help to be found in the forums from the long-time players. Thanks :)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2012, 01:22:47 PM »
This was exploited heavily in the past and so is disallowed.

not by Small A/C

This was part of the Magic Carpet (his airline name)... this was also when ABCBA was allowed.  He'd go almost all First/Business and Fly from NRT to LAX to LHR and back.  He had lines EVERYWHERE.   I felt sorry for the server when it drew his network map (Sami had to put the server to sleep)  This was also before the current ordering system was in place so he literally had billions in the first year and the next 40 longhaul a/c in every line already reserved.    It crippled the sim, honestly.

While it didn't really pertain to small a/c, every a/c that has over a certain percentage of First/Business will have a penalty to filling those seats.  You then also need to take speed into account as most 'small' ac are prop/tps.  They will lose out on business to jet/fan planes.

Offline Beni

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2012, 09:50:27 PM »
I can understand all the things about "exploitings" in the past, but, remember that when I started this post I gave it the name "Business seats in SMALL aircrafts". The word SMALL is the key word of this matter.

I'm not going to take any "exploited" adventage flying LHR to CDG in an Embraer with a business only configuration. I only wanted to open a different way in the current crowded landscape.

Offline Tiberius

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Re: Business seats in small aircrafts
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 04:52:51 AM »
Euskoair, may I point out YOU sir have the most seniority on this thread (based on join date)! :) more veteran players...bah.

Sounds to me like the "rules" of the programming should be updated to limit daily class-specific demand as well in some way?

I want my freedom to configure as I see fit. Also miss the ABCBA's, but that's old news.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 04:56:19 AM by hellsey »

 

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