AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!  (Read 1845 times)

737Capt

  • Former member
Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« on: May 25, 2012, 03:42:10 PM »
Just a warning to everyone.  Apparently if you change the aircraft type it ruins your load factor on that flight!  I changed a 727 route to A300 and canceled another 727 route both of which were 70% load factors.  Now I am down to 25% load factor with slightly less seats available.  Takes away a lot of the realism and fun for this game.

Offline Jona L.

  • Members
  • Posts: 3361
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2012, 04:05:41 PM »
Just a warning to everyone.  Apparently if you change the aircraft type it ruins your load factor on that flight!  I changed a 727 route to A300 and canceled another 727 route both of which were 70% load factors.  Now I am down to 25% load factor with slightly less seats available.  Takes away a lot of the realism and fun for this game.

You just got, what everyone hating this as well calls it: FREQUENCY F*CKED

The most annoying thing about this game in total, your 727 provided more daily flights, but with the A300's reduced capacity, passengers dislike you. Basically this "feature" (in other words: this crap) makes this game support F27 slot hoggers, and kills any realism...

Millions of feature requests and such are cruising around these forums, none get heard, or some random noobs come up against it...

Offline AndiD

  • Members
  • Posts: 131
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2012, 04:34:55 PM »
I kinda like it though, the chance as a smaller, regional carrier to stay competitive with the "big boys" on the short/med routes at a sizable airport. A difference of 70 in CI about evened out by 2 vs 1 flights...

Offline Pilot Oatmeal

  • Members
  • Posts: 700
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2012, 05:41:08 PM »
I kinda like it though, the chance as a smaller, regional carrier to stay competitive with the "big boys" on the short/med routes at a sizable airport. A difference of 70 in CI about evened out by 2 vs 1 flights...

I agree, I think that until passengers become more complex frequency is the only thing that helps smaller airlines.  The big airlines can't have it all.

juanchopancho

  • Former member
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2012, 06:26:59 PM »
The average layman has zero preference for aircraft types, hell they barely know the difference between an A300 and a 727. There should be no preference due to aircraft size. The only preference I know in the real world is that passengers prefer jet power over prop due to perceived safety concerns.

mavi

  • Former member
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2012, 07:42:39 PM »
The average layman has zero preference for aircraft types, hell they barely know the difference between an A300 and a 727. There should be no preference due to aircraft size. The only preference I know in the real world is that passengers prefer jet power over prop due to perceived safety concerns.

But they do care about frequencies.  It might be exaggerated in this game, but it has a real world affect.

Online michael

  • Members
  • Posts: 530
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2012, 10:05:39 PM »
Personally, and I may not be the average passenger, I select flights based on earning FF points... I dont care about departure times or frequency as long as I arrive the day I need to be at the destination. Most airlines offer at least a daily departure and usually you fit your schedule around their schedule...

The frequency part of AWS will always be a pain, the only way to attempt a move in the right direction it is to penalize time flown in the air to stop the F27s, Dash and ATR ruling the skies on high demand routes. This should apply to tech stopping aircraft also. There should be a penalty applied to a route that is going to refuel half way to the destination vs no penalty for a direct service.

I am sure passengers would rather be at their destination earlier in a jet or direct service than still at cruise in a prop or tech stop ac, even if the prop/tech stop ac has double the amount of departures. Again I could be wrong and real world passengers are flocking to such services.

mavi

  • Former member
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2012, 10:26:57 PM »
Personally, and I may not be the average passenger, I select flights based on earning FF points... I dont care about departure times or frequency as long as I arrive the day I need to be at the destination. Most airlines offer at least a daily departure and usually you fit your schedule around their schedule...

You are probably not a high value customer (i.e. last minute business traveler).  Just look at the shuttle service between LGA/BOS/DCA.  Because US Airways and Delta Shuttle have nearly hourly departures, no one else even bothers running a flight on the routes, as business travelers like being able to show up when the meeting is over and leave right away on the next flight.  Leisure traveling fills out the plane, but its business travel that determines if the flight happens or not.

juanchopancho

  • Former member
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2012, 11:33:33 PM »
But they do care about frequencies.  It might be exaggerated in this game, but it has a real world affect.

Frequency is more important for business travel. If you want to get down to perception then the smaller the plane the less safe the average passenger feels, so the preference would be for bigger aircraft.

Frequent travelers probably also prefer smaller because they can board and deplane much faster. Frequent and business travelers want to be in & out of the aiport with the least amount of hassle.

That's where passenger categories come in. Tourist class which usually takes up most of the plane, they don't care so much about frequency and they perceive bigger as better. What tourist class do notice is also seat pitch and service. Business class frequency is more important and smaller the better and of course seat pitch/service is important.

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2012, 05:44:11 AM »
You just got, what everyone hating this as well calls it: FREQUENCY F*CKED

The most annoying thing about this game in total, your 727 provided more daily flights, but with the A300's reduced capacity, passengers dislike you. Basically this "feature" (in other words: this crap) makes this game support F27 slot hoggers, and kills any realism...

Millions of feature requests and such are cruising around these forums, none get heard, or some random noobs come up against it...

I actually don't think this "kills any realism."

Realistically, passengers prefer frequency (i.e., choice of different flight times) over capacity. This is why you see operations such as the US Air Shuttle and Delta Air Shuttle flying swarms of little E70s, A319s, and MD80s between LGA, BOS, and DCA. Even though it would be cheaper, from a fuel perspective, to consolidate everything into two 757 flights or just one 777 flight daily--but offering "Departures!Every!Hour!" gives these operations an edge over the competition flying fewer, larger planes on these routes (e.g. UACO, AA, etc.).

In other words, real life supports F27 slot hoggers.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 05:47:23 AM by EsquireFlyer »

Offline EsquireFlyer

  • Members
  • Posts: 1327
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2012, 05:47:07 AM »
Personally, and I may not be the average passenger, I select flights based on earning FF points... I dont care about departure times or frequency as long as I arrive the day I need to be at the destination. Most airlines offer at least a daily departure and usually you fit your schedule around their schedule...

I usually select flights based on FF points, too--but--

even though I am a 1K on UA, and an Exec Plat on AA, when I fly from New York to Boston I usually take the US Air or Delta Shuttle. Because it's just so much more convenient, with all the departure times to choose from, and change to/from if I get to the airport too early or too late.

L1011fan

  • Former member
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 04:42:42 AM »
The average layman has zero preference for aircraft types, hell they barely know the difference between an A300 and a 727. There should be no preference due to aircraft size. The only preference I know in the real world is that passengers prefer jet power over prop due to perceived safety concerns.
This is the truest point here. 99% of people don't know if they're on a 727 or a an A300. They just know its a plane and they are flying.Simple as that!

L1011fan

  • Former member
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2012, 04:44:20 AM »
You are probably not a high value customer (i.e. last minute business traveler).  Just look at the shuttle service between LGA/BOS/DCA.  Because US Airways and Delta Shuttle have nearly hourly departures, no one else even bothers running a flight on the routes, as business travelers like being able to show up when the meeting is over and leave right away on the next flight.  Leisure traveling fills out the plane, but its business travel that determines if the flight happens or not.
But AWS doesn't run that model.

Offline Wing Commander Chad Studdington

  • Members
  • Posts: 1047
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2012, 10:02:33 AM »
The issue seems to be (from my point of view) is that passengers in AWS are modeled very basically and that hampers an awful lot less.

Passengers all seem to be a homogenous lump of 'objects' who want to go from A to B. In that sense a Y class passenger in Albania is exactly the same as an F class passenger in London.  There is no differentiating beyond that. As has been said the engine doesn't show the difference between a family of 4 going on holiday to a high flying businessman. These are all things which could be changed to really make the game better. The family of 4 wont mind being sardined onto a 737 and being charged for everything including the seatbelt as long as it gets them to their hideous holiday resort on the Costa del Sol for less than 30. Your business traveler does not want that, he wants fast boarding, somewhere to plug in his laptop, free lunch on the flight and a big seat. This again doesn't show up which is why it is easy to extract cash by cramming a plane with low quality C and F class seats, passengers will still fill them. It could have an effect on equipment, family of 4 don't care about the plane, they don't mind 180 people on tiny seats with no legroom and no IFE or food, its cheap. Mr Businessman however may know that he prefers A320s to B737s and does want the IFE, copy of The Times, a free salad and a nice air hostess to look at! This should be a factor.   

As to frequency yes, it does matter, to a point. Yes, if you are flying 4 A320s a day against a single 777 on a high demand domestic hop that makes sense. Maybe flying 2 ATRs against an A319. But this flying of 10 ATRs against 4 A320s is ridiculous, it doesn't happen in real life otherwise pretty much every aircraft over Europe would be a small turboprop. Yes our business passenger friend would like to leave after his meeting so C (especially) and maybe F should be dependent on frequency, but that family of 4 don't care if they can leave at 10am, 12 noon or 2pm, they just want the 30 tickets.

I know there are 7 billion people on Earth and each one would be different but surely passengers could be grouped, could behave differently, Y class between LHR-JFK want something different from Y between BHX-PMI. If nothing else that Y, C and F all behave differently, Y will be ok with take off at 3am on a sardine 737, but C and F wont. C will pay attention to frequency, Y nowhere near as much.     

Offline NorgeFly

  • Members
  • Posts: 3651
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2012, 11:49:56 PM »
It's a complex issue. In some markets frequency is essential where as in others it is barely an issue at all. It very much depends on why passengers are travelling. So until different categories of passengers can be modelled, the current model is a fairly decent one.

If/when categories of passengers are modelled along with some sort of connections model, it will open up a wealth of new business model opportunities. True budget carriers targeting leisure passengers will be possible, hub airlines will be possible etc.

The airline I work for are predominately interested in domestic business passengers in the UK so frequency is important on many routes. We typically operate at least two daily flights on all domestic (and some key Euro city) routes to allow a business day return, with as many as eight or nine flights per day on the busiest routes at peak days of the week. All with regional aircraft. Competition from low frequency competitors tends to take the low yielding leisure passengers rather than the important business passengers who make the flights worthwhile.

On the other hand, we also operate in a large number of low frequency leisure markets that fill in the gaps in the business friendly schedules and at weekends charter work is quite important as most business people travel on week days.

What I'm trying to get across is, it's not as simple, as filling the available demand with either a 747 or an ATR in real life, but AWS does not have the passenger behaviour modelled to make AWS more realistic. And we can be 100% certain that if Sami ever does make it more complex, it will open the flood gates to a million more complaints and demands from us demanding wanna-be CEOs :)

Offline Jona L.

  • Members
  • Posts: 3361
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 12:50:04 AM »
It's a complex issue. In some markets frequency is essential where as in others it is barely an issue at all. It very much depends on why passengers are travelling. So until different categories of passengers can be modelled, the current model is a fairly decent one.

If/when categories of passengers are modelled along with some sort of connections model, it will open up a wealth of new business model opportunities. True budget carriers targeting leisure passengers will be possible, hub airlines will be possible etc.

The airline I work for are predominately interested in domestic business passengers in the UK so frequency is important on many routes. We typically operate at least two daily flights on all domestic (and some key Euro city) routes to allow a business day return, with as many as eight or nine flights per day on the busiest routes at peak days of the week. All with regional aircraft. Competition from low frequency competitors tends to take the low yielding leisure passengers rather than the important business passengers who make the flights worthwhile.

On the other hand, we also operate in a large number of low frequency leisure markets that fill in the gaps in the business friendly schedules and at weekends charter work is quite important as most business people travel on week days.

FlyBE?!

Offline NorgeFly

  • Members
  • Posts: 3651
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 09:14:36 AM »

Offline Jona L.

  • Members
  • Posts: 3361
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 02:18:12 PM »
Could be  ;)

You didn't talk about LH-operations, so BA is out, Virgin doesn't have such thing as Domestic/Europe flights, and I don't know any other British airline having Business class (--> EasyJet is also out) only option I could see was FlyBE.

Had a Turn Around on one of them yesterday, funny pilot ;D . I stroke over the engine, when we made our final walk around check after doors closed :) E195
cheers ;)

Offline alexgv1

  • Members
  • Posts: 2184
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 04:30:13 PM »
FlyBE?!

I thought we weren't to speak of them any more  ::)
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Pilot Oatmeal

  • Members
  • Posts: 700
Re: Changing Aircraft Destroys Load Factor!
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 06:26:03 PM »
I thought we weren't to speak of them any more  ::)

why is that? I love their fleet :laugh:

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.