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Author Topic: Minimum lease period  (Read 1614 times)

Offline Jona L.

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Minimum lease period
« on: April 24, 2012, 01:26:41 PM »
Hey

Simple thing actually... As we have a limitizer for "maximum lease" upon lease out, how about we could get a minimum lease period as well?

This would be able to solve 2 problems: a) return just short of a D-check and b) plannability for the lessor.

I have some planes, that I'd like to lease out, but only on long-term (5-7yr) contracts. Thus I disallow lease renewal for airlines, in order to keep the price up, by re-leasing it again. Just tons of micromanagement. By being able to ask for a minimum leasing duration, I could force lessees to take the plane for the desired time period. If he wants to get rid of it earlier: 50% of remaining lease fee, as usual.

I think I am not much off shot to say airlines do so as well, though I think they rather request planes from others than offer them.

cheers,
Jona L.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2012, 01:27:50 PM »
I'd like to see that.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2012, 02:00:38 PM »
+1

Offline Tube

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2012, 05:31:38 PM »
+1

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2012, 05:33:36 PM »

Offline RushmoreAir

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2012, 12:15:05 AM »

+1

Anyone has something to say actually?

Nope.  You hit the nail on the head.  I like your idea just as you presented it and it would be an extremely nice feature to have.   ;D

Offline Lairyliam

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 03:50:13 PM »
It would have to work almost like a charter, so you would pay for another company to come in and fly for you, no one would dry lease a plane for a month, (that i am aware of) you would have to to check before, and a hand back check after, (to put all the standard stuff back in the plane)

Now if you wanted me to lease you a plane on an ACMI basis for the 35 days, That happens all the time, Iv arranged many myself. 
and yes, would be really cool if we could have our own aircraft available for ACMI....  The cost of a plane on the ground not earning money is a gamble, but if she flies, it could earn you a modest profit. - although you could make it so its less money than and average, profit for that aircraft.

Liam

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 04:03:02 PM »
It would have to work almost like a charter, so you would pay for another company to come in and fly for you, no one would dry lease a plane for a month, (that i am aware of) you would have to to check before, and a hand back check after, (to put all the standard stuff back in the plane)

Now if you wanted me to lease you a plane on an ACMI basis for the 35 days, That happens all the time, Iv arranged many myself.  
and yes, would be really cool if we could have our own aircraft available for ACMI....  The cost of a plane on the ground not earning money is a gamble, but if she flies, it could earn you a modest profit. - although you could make it so its less money than and average, profit for that aircraft.

Liam

Wrong topic?!
This is not about ACMI leases... we talk about MINIMUM leasing periods, to disallow leasing contracts shorter than a set time period.

Please make your own Feature Request for ACMI short-term-leases, I'd like to see such as well, but only one request per topic please (free after Monty Python - Life of Brian "One cross each")

Offline Lairyliam

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2012, 07:13:15 PM »
Fair enough....  I didnt say it was something i wanted....

 I was just being a tool and grabbing the wrong end of the stick.

Ill wind my neck in and crawl back in my hole...  :-[ :-[ :-[

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2012, 07:35:00 PM »
Fair enough....  I didnt say it was something i wanted....

 I was just being a tool and grabbing the wrong end of the stick.

Ill wind my neck in and crawl back in my hole...  :-[ :-[ :-[

;D didn't mean to intimidate you or so, it's just that it was a bit off topic...

cheers mate

Riger

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 11:24:23 PM »
-1

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 11:48:36 PM »
-1


As with the other +\-1 posts is there any reasoning Richard? Otherwise it renders the argument pointless. There have been some good reasons for so far, i would be interested to hear your reasonings.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 07:31:59 AM »
As with the other +\-1 posts is there any reasoning Richard? Otherwise it renders the argument pointless. There have been some good reasons for so far, i would be interested to hear your reasonings.

+1 on that ;D

-----

To stay on topic:

Sami, what would you think about this? Would it be much of an effort to add this setting? If so, let me know how I can help :)


cheers,
Jona L.

Riger

  • Former member
Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2012, 01:38:35 PM »
-1

My reasoning for this is pretty simple really...

I imagine that after this rule were to go active, every aircraft on the second hand market would include a D check within the lease period.

The price of the lease would not reflect this increased cost and therefore, the wealthy players (those who can own aircraft) will get wealthier and the less wealthy players will have to cover the costs of D checks as well, thus making their bottom line even lower.

If the lease cost over the period reflected a reduction in cost equivalent to the cost of a D check, then perhaps that (albeit difficult to prove with nothing to compare to) would be reasonable and perhaps even encourage longer leases.

I see the renters getting screwed and the fat cats getting fatter ...

No offense intended.

Regards

Richard


Offline Jona L.

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2012, 03:18:42 PM »
-1

My reasoning for this is pretty simple really...

I imagine that after this rule were to go active, every aircraft on the second hand market would include a D check within the lease period.

The price of the lease would not reflect this increased cost and therefore, the wealthy players (those who can own aircraft) will get wealthier and the less wealthy players will have to cover the costs of D checks as well, thus making their bottom line even lower.

If the lease cost over the period reflected a reduction in cost equivalent to the cost of a D check, then perhaps that (albeit difficult to prove with nothing to compare to) would be reasonable and perhaps even encourage longer leases.

I see the renters getting screwed and the fat cats getting fatter ...

No offense intended.

Regards

Richard

Good to know, I'll take care you won't take one of my planes if you want to return them for D-checks.

The point is, that the buyer of the plane intends to earn cash of it, and since it is leased away it makes far less income than a plane you actually operate (for me usually 20-25% of the cash I'd make running it). But everytime when you lease out a plane, and get it back before a D-check (especially when the aircraft is a bit older already) the prior leasing income does not make up for all the costs. Maybe it would cover the D-check, but keep in mind, that those planes also costed a bunch of millions of $$$ to be bought.

In real life contracts are made prior to the lease itself, on which checks to be performed or not, and thereby also the actual price is negotiated. Since that is not possible in Airwaysim, there must be other ways. Currently I limit my planes to be bought or MAX. leasing at 0.5yrs, in order to make money on them and eventually pay such checks. This means a much higher leasing cost for the lessee.

Either I'd like to get the ability to charge 300% of their value for my planes, so that leasing cost would reflect a non-performance of a D-check. Or such minimu lease period should be introduced, in order to allow coercion on lessee to provide the checks.

Other option, as priorly suggested in another topic, would be to "write off" the checks, so that a lessee has to pay a certain %age of the checks not performed based on the time it operated the plane. So say the airline operated the aircraft for 4 yrs, and made a C-check prior to return, but left the D-check free, they would pay 50% of the D-check price, as they operated it for that long.

I'd like them all, but I think Ideas 1&2 are the easiest to program, so Option 3 is rather something for long winter days :P

cheers,
Jona L.

EDIT:
Addement for Riger: There is also a simple principle about such things... "Don't like, don't take", someone who likes it, will take it. And If you should come up with the monopoly things about the high prices for player-sold aircraft on used market, keep in mind, that in most parts of the world there is no communism, but instead free (or social) market economy, thus a rare good will be raised in its price, and vastly available goods will have decreasing prices.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 03:22:40 PM by Jona L. »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 06:02:52 PM »
Riger,

You always have an option aircraft with less or no restrictions over aircraft with more restrictions.

Joe

Riger

  • Former member
Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 07:43:06 PM »
Wait a minute ...

I put -1 because I don't like the idea.  Then I get asked to explain my reasons, which I do, and now I'm a bad guy?

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 08:02:24 PM »
Wait a minute ...

I put -1 because I don't like the idea.  Then I get asked to explain my reasons, which I do, and now I'm a bad guy?

Just made a sarcastic side comment... Because exactly that thing is why I am asking for this feature, because this destroys the little margin you have when you lease out a plane.

I understand that attitude though, but to harm other airlines, that actually help you expand by supplying planes, is simply immoral... just my p.o.v. though, but I think other lessors will agree.

cheers,
Jona L.

Riger

  • Former member
Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2012, 02:01:41 AM »
Just made a sarcastic side comment... Because exactly that thing is why I am asking for this feature, because this destroys the little margin you have when you lease out a plane.

I understand that attitude though, but to harm other airlines, that actually help you expand by supplying planes, is simply immoral... just my p.o.v. though, but I think other lessors will agree.


Immoral is probably a bit of a strong word because that knife cuts 2 ways.  Lessors that have a/c on the market that are hugely overpriced or have expired C's and/or D's could also get painted with that brush but the simple matter is (as was stated by yourself "Don't like, don't take") we do have choices to make.

If leasing a/c out is that marginal, then why do it? (except if you purchased too many because you had too much $$$ in the first place).

Getting back to the topic...  If Sami does allow lessors to apply a minimum lease period, then by the same margin, there should be a requirement that an a/c placed onto the second hand market has at least [n] number of years before D check and [n] number of months before C check.  That would seem like a fair balance to me. The airlines that actually support you by leasing the aircraft you put on the market should also get a fair deal. Would you say it is immoral to put aircraft on the market that have expired C/D checks?

Seems to me that we do have choices to make and that includes providing a service to lease out aircraft.






Offline alexgv1

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Re: Minimum lease period
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2012, 02:15:48 AM »
The reason why the market is flooded with planes players never intend to use is because of the tax system. If that was sorted out then there wouldn't be the huge tax returns and pre December 31st spendings which mostly go towards these aircraft by the "big guys" Richard talked about.

Would you say it is immoral to put aircraft on the market that have expired C/D checks?

Not at all, I just reflect the price accordingly. Has to have at least the value of the check taken off if you want it to sell, or maybe even perform it yourself (not an option when you don't fly that fleet).
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

 

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