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Author Topic: Navigation Fees Killing me  (Read 2627 times)

sentprime117

  • Former member
Navigation Fees Killing me
« on: March 09, 2012, 06:35:30 AM »
Ok so I just started a new airline. I have two Q400s based in San Jose(SJC). I have each aircraft flying to 3 different destinations (and back) every day. All routes are profitable. But the navigation costs are way too high as can be seen here:



Why are they so high? Is there any way to reduce them?

Sergey Goncharenko

  • Former member
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2012, 06:56:55 AM »
Unfortunately, the payment aeronavigation fees not set correctly in AWS. Airlines don't pay for slots at the airports.
In real life air navigation charges are as follows:
Enroute fees:- $ 70-90 for every 100 km distance navigation (for aircraft MTOW 51-100 tons). Typically, the frequency of payment - 1-2 times per month.
Aerodrome fees:- $ 5-10 for every ton MTOW.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 07:09:04 AM by Uran »

sentprime117

  • Former member
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 07:03:36 AM »
So is this a bug? If it is, do the paid versions also have the same issue?

Offline psw231

  • Members
  • Posts: 295
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 07:06:15 AM »
 Your navigation fees include the cost of buying airport slots, so in a week where you do not open new routes they will be nominal. When you say you have 2 Q's flying to 3 different destinations each do you mean that you fly to 6 destinations? If you do mean this this is not a good idea, you should allways fly to one destination until your seat supply equals the route demand before opening a second destination, then repeat with each aircraft. The reason for this is the more destinations that you fly to the more you spend on marketing and staffing which are both large variable costs that you must keep to a minimum to do well. You will survive for now but as you add more Q's put them on the allready served routes to match the full demand or if those routes only have enough demand for one flight find routes that can support multiple daily flights and fill the demand on those.
 These points are covered well as are many others in the NEWB guides in the General Forum. Spend time reading the forums and be patient and you will likely be successfull. Do not worry too much about being in the red during your first few game months as it takes time to build up your load factors on each flight and make you more profitable, hense patience.

Offline psw231

  • Members
  • Posts: 295
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 07:11:34 AM »
Unfortunately, the payment aeronavigation fees not set correctly. Airlines don't pay for slots at the airports.
In real life air navigation charges are as follows:
Enroute fees:- $ 70-90 for every 100 km distance navigation (for aircraft MTOW 51-100 tons). Typically, the frequency of payment - 1-2 times per month.
Aerodrome fees:- $ 5-10 for every ton MTOW.


Uran please remember this is a game and not real life. Do 300 airlines start operations on the same day in real life? This is not a bug and all players in all games play by the same rules which are designed to be as close to real life as they can be while maximizing the playability of the game.

Sergey Goncharenko

  • Former member
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 07:14:59 AM »
So is this a bug? If it is, do the paid versions also have the same issue?
No, this is the rule in AWS >:(.

sentprime117

  • Former member
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 07:26:00 AM »
Your navigation fees include the cost of buying airport slots, so in a week where you do not open new routes they will be nominal.
Thanks for clarifying that. Anyway, it looks like I'm going to be in the green this week.

Quote
When you say you have 2 Q's flying to 3 different destinations each do you mean that you fly to 6 destinations? If you do mean this this is not a good idea, you should allways fly to one destination until your seat supply equals the route demand before opening a second destination, then repeat with each aircraft. The reason for this is the more destinations that you fly to the more you spend on marketing and staffing which are both large variable costs that you must keep to a minimum to do well. You will survive for now but as you add more Q's put them on the allready served routes to match the full demand or if those routes only have enough demand for one flight find routes that can support multiple daily flights and fill the demand on those.
 
Yup. Six destinations;



I made the mistake of trying to increase fleet utilization by increasing the number of destinations. The problem with SJC is that it's closed from 2300 to 0600. So no redeye flights.  :(

sentprime117

  • Former member
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 07:27:50 AM »
No, this is the rule in AWS >:(.
Sorry man. I misunderstood.

Sergey Goncharenko

  • Former member
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 07:34:52 AM »
Uran please remember this is a game and not real life.
Hmm.. I thought that AWS is not game... AWS - is the Realistic Simulator. In a Simulator should correspond about= 90 % to real conditions of business.
It is necessary for perfection a little:
- to realise the cash flow
- to realise repayment condition (airports and others charges/fees)

Offline Sami

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    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 11:04:07 AM »
Hmm.. I thought that AWS is not game... AWS - is the Realistic Simulator. In a Simulator should correspond about= 90 % to real conditions of business.

Once more - I am not going to let you allow to start these arguments again, ok? This now the third thread where you continue this and seems that you really have some issues in understanding that we cannot model everything by the last detail from real world as it would simply make AWS unplayable - there are and will be in the future too some "omissions" made for the sake of usability and playability. (And I am not going to debate this with you again.)


So is this a bug? If it is, do the paid versions also have the same issue?

No, this is not a bug.

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/Routes/Slots/


Just to be clear - the slots have one-time purchasing costs. This is to eliminate or at least reduce the abuse and hogging of the slots (getting them without the real need for them). Larger airports or slot-limited airports have relatively very high slot costs to encourage operation with larger aircraft and to make it economically more challenging, while small airports have free slots.

(And for information, the enroute and landing charges are modeled too according to the MTOW calculation method.)

« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 11:06:55 AM by sami »

Sergey Goncharenko

  • Former member
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 12:18:56 PM »
we cannot model everything by the last detail from real world as it would simply make AWS unplayable - there are and will be in the future too some "omissions" made for the sake of usability and playability. (And I am not going to debate this with you again.)
Sami, in AWS many processes are simulated excellently, behind these exception:
-  cash-flow
-  balance specifications
- specification of expenses flights
- leasing
The real economics has no processes, which couldn't be any simulated (if formulas and rules are known).

Larger airports or slot-limited airports have relatively very high slot costs to encourage operation with larger aircraft and to make it economically more challenging, while small airports have free slots.

Hmm...  ))
But why?
The similar decision deforms economic model only, but more nothing. The Airline can reserve the slot for some time. If the slot isn't used, slot is cancelled.
Encourage of Airlines for use the slots by large planes is present not by payment for slots. The Airports encourage Airlines to use the Large aircraft because applications discounts.
If the Фirline wishes, it's possible to buy jetway. (Cost jetway $60 000 - 70 000 per month). If the Airline has paid the jetway, it's not necessary to coordinate slots. However for small aircraft (ATR, ERJ-135-145, etc.) it's impossible to use a jetway.
It is elementary for modelling in the simulator. Why not? )
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 06:38:27 PM by Uran »

Offline pascaly

  • Members
  • Posts: 405
Re: Navigation Fees Killing me
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2012, 05:45:46 AM »
Dude, it's hard enough to get slots, now you want us to buy airport infrastructure too? What's next, running the cafe inside the terminal?

Let it go; it's a GAME. It's not The Matrix; it's not meant to be confused with real life. 

Imagine this; you're on a trampoline, you want to jump 50 feet in the air. You can't, the trampoline lets you jump 10 feet, but there are limits on what it can do based on reality.  That's AWS.

And go easy on Sami. I gather English isn't your first language, but your tone is coming across quite rude and demanding.  Just some friendly advice.

 

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