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Author Topic: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency  (Read 3477 times)

Offline Pilot Oatmeal

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 08:10:14 PM »
Some people would say that it is almost equally ridiculous to fly 757 transatlantic.  It is not common in RL.  It is smaller than typical aircraft for those flights (A330, 767, 772) and gets a huge frequency advantage over this more appropriate aircraft.

I posted an idea that might solve this problem here:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,38007.0.html

Woah woah, I'd say 2/3 of flights out of Manchester Transatlantic are used by 757s, American is very happy so use them long haul across the pond ;)

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 08:17:12 PM »
Woah woah, I'd say 2/3 of flights out of Manchester Transatlantic are used by 757s, American is very happy so use them long haul across the pond ;)

I have been on one transatlantic 757 flight myself in the past, I am not saying they don't exist.  I said they are not typical.  Manchester may have slightly thinner demand and shorter distance, both favoring 757 compared to continental Europe.

Offline mark320

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 09:05:20 PM »
Fair point, however, think about it. There is a formula ready, but if I tell you, then I'd have to kill you ;D

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 09:55:22 PM »
But m320au's point is equally valid for say 1x A380 direct vs 2x A330 indirect. Maybe there should be bigger penalty for flying indirect when there is a direct option although past a certain point e.g. 9000nm route maybe a rest on the ground not a bad thing. I would use example also of 777-200 tech stop versus 777-200ER direct but then there is no aircraft size or frequency difference.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2012, 10:09:35 PM »
But m320au's point is equally valid for say 1x A380 direct vs 2x A330 indirect. Maybe there should be bigger penalty for flying indirect when there is a direct option although past a certain point e.g. 9000nm route maybe a rest on the ground not a bad thing. I would use example also of 777-200 tech stop versus 777-200ER direct but then there is no aircraft size or frequency difference.

But these things (available ranges) change throughout the game - from Jet Age to Modern Times.  And the tech stop just means slower effective speed.  Speed makes some difference, but none of the variables amount to much vs. overwhelming frequency benefit.  If the frequency benefit is turned down a notch or 2, the difference in effective speed would make a bigger difference.

Let's me just pull some numbers out of the hat to illustrate:
Let's say 2xA330 with a tech stop vs. A380 direct.  A330 may get a -20% penalty due to slower speed and +80% benefit due to frequency.

So if you are going to be dealing with slower speed (tech stop or otherwise), you are dealing with secondary or tertiary symptom of the frequency problem, rather than tackling the frequency benefit head on.  It would not be a good approach.

Offline m320au

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2012, 10:30:35 PM »
Iteresting to see a someone flying 752 trans-atlantic complaining his competitor's size of aircraft.  Especially A321, which is about the same size as 752.

Swiftus would get a kick out of this post...

According to a quick google search, American Airlines operated 1100 transatlantic 757 services last december alone. This would be supported by a search of airliners.net for images of American Airlines 757s in European airports - which delivered 445 results - ranging from Manchester, Paris, Brussels, Heathrow. On that basis i assert that the 757 -is- a transatlantic airliner.

There is, to my knowledge however, only 1 transatlantic flight using a320 family equipment, a specially equipped BRitish Airways a318 operating London City to JFK in all J class configuration which tech stops in Shannon (i believe) westbound. I welcome learning about other scheduled a320 or a321 services however I don't believe there are any - and if so, they are certainly not being used competitively against non stop 757 services and succeeding. Passengers simply would not get on them - a stopover is a major inconvenience.

I believe an adjustment to the game algorithm that asks "is a non-stop service available on this route? If answer yes : route image divided by 2" would be somewhere equivalent to what actual passenger behaviour reflects.

Yes I agree that AWS is not a real life simulation - and i expect all manner of arguments as to why this realism improvement shouldn't be addressed - but I believe the game would be significantly improved if this issue was addressed and hence my reason for mentioning it when seeing a post with this topic.

Regards
European One


Offline Jona L.

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2012, 10:38:30 PM »
So if you are going to be dealing with slower speed (tech stop or otherwise), you are dealing with secondary or tertiary symptom of the frequency problem, rather than tackling the frequency benefit head on.  It would not be a good approach.

Thus:

Cut the frequency bonus by a decent lot (which means take at least 60% of its power), and let speed move up say 25-30% and also let Seat quality move up so that the few people (which I don't count into, but would change my mind) using premium seats get a possibility to catch up with their prices. and make the rest of the factors raise about equally (in order not to let a vacuum appear).

This way also CRJs and ERJs and such get back their position in Ultra Short Haul (under 500NM) flights because the 10 minutes difference they make would actually matter, and over these 500NMs props and turboprops would be based by 737 & co., as they would simply be too slow. Which means you kill to flies in one hit -The frequency bonus being way too strong, and the spammers flying 5x DHC-8 on a 1500NM route instead of 2x A321 or 2x B739 or so...-

cheers and good night,
Jona L.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2012, 10:48:56 PM »
Thus:

Cut the frequency bonus by a decent lot (which means take at least 60% of its power), and let speed move up say 25-30% and also let Seat quality move up so that the few people (which I don't count into, but would change my mind) using premium seats get a possibility to catch up with their prices. and make the rest of the factors raise about equally (in order not to let a vacuum appear).

This way also CRJs and ERJs and such get back their position in Ultra Short Haul (under 500NM) flights because the 10 minutes difference they make would actually matter, and over these 500NMs props and turboprops would be based by 737 & co., as they would simply be too slow. Which means you kill to flies in one hit -The frequency bonus being way too strong, and the spammers flying 5x DHC-8 on a 1500NM route instead of 2x A321 or 2x B739 or so...-

cheers and good night,
Jona L.

Exactly.  Once you frequency benefit goes down, everything else (speed, seat quality, perhaps price etc) goes up.  All the other variables are already built into the system AFAIK, but are overwhelmed by the frequency benefit.

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2012, 10:52:22 PM »
According to a quick google search, American Airlines operated 1100 transatlantic 757 services last december alone. This would be supported by a search of airliners.net for images of American Airlines 757s in European airports - which delivered 445 results - ranging from Manchester, Paris, Brussels, Heathrow. On that basis i assert that the 757 -is- a transatlantic airliner.

There is, to my knowledge however, only 1 transatlantic flight using a320 family equipment, a specially equipped BRitish Airways a318 operating London City to JFK in all J class configuration which tech stops in Shannon (i believe) westbound. I welcome learning about other scheduled a320 or a321 services however I don't believe there are any - and if so, they are certainly not being used competitively against non stop 757 services and succeeding. Passengers simply would not get on them - a stopover is a major inconvenience.

I believe an adjustment to the game algorithm that asks "is a non-stop service available on this route? If answer yes : route image divided by 2" would be somewhere equivalent to what actual passenger behaviour reflects.

Yes I agree that AWS is not a real life simulation - and i expect all manner of arguments as to why this realism improvement shouldn't be addressed - but I believe the game would be significantly improved if this issue was addressed and hence my reason for mentioning it when seeing a post with this topic.

Regards
European One

Believe me you are by far mot the first to complain, and by far not the last. I think humanity dies out before sami will change anything...

There are a couple of nonstop 738 operations by Privat Air flying 30C seats from AMS, FRA and a couple of others to JFK, BOS and around there. These are mainly business charter flights or supporting flights for days with high business demand on certain routes, thus not to be considered steady "service". The BA A318 needs to tech stop in SSN on the outbound as it cannot take off in LCY with full fuel load. Inbound it is light enough to land there though.


AA is bankrupt, too... will you follow that example of them as well?! - Just kidding ;)

AA flew 1100 B752 services in DEC2011? So then let's get into maths (I hate this part) 1100/31days --> rounded 35-36 flights a day devide by two for in- and outbound flights -->we get to 18 752 a day.

Now the more interesting part:
Which destinations: TXL (Berlin), HAM (Hamburg), DUS (Düsseldorf), MAN (Manchester), OSL (Oslo), ARN (Stockholm), WAW (Warsaw), BRU (Brussels), and a couple of more in France and Spain. Considering they can reach many of these also from ORD, you've got your numbers...

       - to be extra nit picky: "trans atlantic" is also KMIA into St. Maarten, into Puerto Rico, or flying across the Gulf (KMIA-MMMX) all these flights go over the Atlantic Ocean -

Have you checked the dates of the LHR picks? I belive they are not the latest ones, they indeed operated into LHR, but I don't think they still do, because they cut their own flesh. Landing in LHR costs hell of a sum of cash, and why fly a 757 if you can get a 772 in for only few more bucks, which means 2x the PAX for 1.5x the cost where each further passenger means a high profit margin as well.

cheers,
Jona L.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:56:40 PM by Jona L. »

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2012, 10:59:48 PM »
According to a quick google search, American Airlines operated 1100 transatlantic 757 services last december alone. This would be supported by a search of airliners.net for images of American Airlines 757s in European airports - which delivered 445 results - ranging from Manchester, Paris, Brussels, Heathrow. On that basis i assert that the 757 -is- a transatlantic airliner.

There is, to my knowledge however, only 1 transatlantic flight using a320 family equipment, a specially equipped BRitish Airways a318 operating London City to JFK in all J class configuration which tech stops in Shannon (i believe) westbound. I welcome learning about other scheduled a320 or a321 services however I don't believe there are any - and if so, they are certainly not being used competitively against non stop 757 services and succeeding. Passengers simply would not get on them - a stopover is a major inconvenience.

I believe an adjustment to the game algorithm that asks "is a non-stop service available on this route? If answer yes : route image divided by 2" would be somewhere equivalent to what actual passenger behaviour reflects.

Yes I agree that AWS is not a real life simulation - and i expect all manner of arguments as to why this realism improvement shouldn't be addressed - but I believe the game would be significantly improved if this issue was addressed and hence my reason for mentioning it when seeing a post with this topic.

Regards
European One

Let me see if I can re-phrase your argument:

Lower the tiny (if any) advantage of A321 vs. 752, some advantage of 321 vs. 753 the other guy has over me.
But retain the overwhelming advantage that I have with my 757 vs. A330, 340, 764, 777, 747, A380 of the other guys.

Do you see how incomplete your argument is?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 11:02:04 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2012, 11:01:40 PM »
Let me see if I can re-phrase your argument:

Lower the tiny (if any) advantage of A321 vs. 752, some advantage of 321 vs. 753 of the other guy has over me.
But retain the overwhelming advantage that I have with my 757 vs. A330, 340, 764, 777, 747, A380 of the other guys.

Do you see how incomplete your argument is?

I just dismantled his arguments... no need for further bashing, King Prawn ;)

Offline m320au

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2012, 11:05:32 PM »
Let me see if I can re-phrase your argument:

Lower the tiny (if any) advantage of A321 vs. 752, some advantage of 321 vs. 753 the other guy has over me.
But retain the overwhelming advantage that I have with my 757 vs. A330, 340, 764, 777, 747, A380 of the other guys.

Do you see how incomplete your argument is?

I think you've completely missed my argument? My argument is that tech stopping flights are less attractive to passengers than non stop services, and the game should reflect that. What is incomplete about that?




Offline m320au

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2012, 11:15:05 PM »
Cut the frequency bonus by a decent lot (which means take at least 60% of its power), and let speed move up say 25-30% and also let Seat quality move up so that the few people (which I don't count into, but would change my mind) using premium seats get a possibility to catch up with their prices. and make the rest of the factors raise about equally (in order not to let a vacuum appear).

This way also CRJs and ERJs and such get back their position in Ultra Short Haul (under 500NM) flights because the 10 minutes difference they make would actually matter, and over these 500NMs props and turboprops would be based by 737 & co., as they would simply be too slow. Which means you kill to flies in one hit -The frequency bonus being way too strong, and the spammers flying 5x DHC-8 on a 1500NM route instead of 2x A321 or 2x B739 or so...-

cheers and good night,
Jona L.

Yes! I agree that such an adjustment would be another way of achieving the same result. And "spamming" is exactly the right term to describe the way some players are operating.

Online schro

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2012, 01:43:06 AM »
Some people would say that it is almost equally ridiculous to fly 757 transatlantic.  It is not common in RL.  It is smaller than typical aircraft for those flights (A330, 767, 772) and gets a huge frequency advantage over this more appropriate aircraft.

I posted an idea that might solve this problem here:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,38007.0.html

It is still early in the evening, but this looks like quite a conga line of 752's crossing the atlantic....

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2012, 01:56:07 AM »
I guess you know what NATs are so no need to explain the "conga line"
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Online schro

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2012, 03:31:05 AM »
Off to the races!

This pic has about 3% of the 757s ever made flying TATL at the same time...

Offline m320au

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2012, 03:56:59 AM »
Off to the races!

This pic has about 3% of the 757s ever made flying TATL at the same time...

Interesting graphic. Can you see how many a321s are going across also?

Offline m320au

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2012, 06:11:59 PM »
I just dismantled his arguments... no need for further bashing, King Prawn ;)

I don't think my arguments have been dismantled at all. It is clearly an established fact that the 757 is a transatlantic airliner, and that an a321 tech stopping through Halifax is not. And I intend to continue raising my point that gameplay is suffering whilever it continues to reward more passengers to tech stopping services than direct services when direct alternatives exist.

Regards
European One
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 06:14:36 PM by m320au »

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2012, 06:43:02 PM »
I don't think my arguments have been dismantled at all. It is clearly an established fact that the 757 is a transatlantic airliner, and that an a321 tech stopping through Halifax is not. And I intend to continue raising my point that gameplay is suffering whilever it continues to reward more passengers to tech stopping services than direct services when direct alternatives exist.

Regards
European One

Well, against your couple of 757s you named in the example you have at least 25x as many A33X/34X, B77X, B76X, B74X and A380s crossing the Atlantic every day, carrying a multiple of the passengers each, and those are just the flights to the east-coast cities going to/from Europe. Adding the Middle east and the west American Cities you can easily reach 50-75x as many appropriate planes versus 757...

cheers for not reading my work out on your post....

Jona L.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2012, 06:48:58 PM »
I don't think my arguments have been dismantled at all. It is clearly an established fact that the 757 is a transatlantic airliner, and that an a321 tech stopping through Halifax is not. And I intend to continue raising my point that gameplay is suffering whilever it continues to reward more passengers to tech stopping services than direct services when direct alternatives exist.

Regards
European One

You keep looking at a subset of an issue.  You should look at:
- Why are there far more ATRs in AWS than in RL
- Why are there far more Fokkers in AWS than in RL
- Why are there far more Q400s in AWS than in RL
- Why are there far more EJets in AWS than in RL
- Why are there far more 757s in AWS than in RL

- Why are there fewer 747 in AWS than in RL?
- Why are there fewer 777 in AWS than in RL?

All the questions have the same answer, and it will answer your A321 question as well...

 

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