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Author Topic: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency  (Read 3480 times)

Offline pa425804

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Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« on: March 05, 2012, 12:04:44 AM »
I know that route frequency is important in a way that flying a route 2/3 times per week is not good.  But considering the LH flights that last more than 11 hr one way, then plus the turnaround, which more than likely, would take more than an hour, the total would take more than one day.  That means I need 2 aircraft to fly that route 3 alternate days per aircraft (of course they would fly some other routes as well).  And if I want to fly that route for the whole week, that means I need 3 aircraft and their pattern would be like 2/2/3 or 3/3/1.  I know that the profit margin on LH or even ULH routes is not that much anyway, but apart from this, would the load factor suffers as well, which in turn affects the revenue on this route?

Nlgravity

  • Former member
Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2012, 12:17:37 AM »
If you dont have competition..... the you can fly 1/week and eventualy when your company image reaches +80, you will sell premium seats and do ok.

If you DO have competition, and you fly 3x per week and your competitor flies daily, then you will lose money. So it comes down to the competition.

But then again, if you have a route without comp, and it has premium demand, then why not fly daily?

minerva

  • Former member
Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2012, 12:50:21 AM »
Routes like these are why some airlines use 7 day scheduling; but then you need 7 planes rather than 2 to fill your week for that one destination.

Offline pa425804

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 02:24:27 AM »
That's understood, but what really worries me is the load factor on this route.  For example, I want to fly YSSY-KLAX daily, if I use a/c 1 to fly xxx001/002 on sun/tue/thu, a/c 2 to fly xxx003/004 on mon/fri, a/c 3 to fly xxx005/006 on wed/sat, that is using 3 a/c to make a daily rotation.  Even if I schedule all these flights to depart at the same time of the day, would the system view them as 3 separate flights not flying frequent enough, which leads to low LF on this route?

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 02:43:36 AM »
That's understood, but what really worries me is the load factor on this route.  For example, I want to fly YSSY-KLAX daily, if I use a/c 1 to fly xxx001/002 on sun/tue/thu, a/c 2 to fly xxx003/004 on mon/fri, a/c 3 to fly xxx005/006 on wed/sat, that is using 3 a/c to make a daily rotation.  Even if I schedule all these flights to depart at the same time of the day, would the system view them as 3 separate flights not flying frequent enough, which leads to low LF on this route?

First, some players say that there is a disadvantage of flying less than 7x week.  I am not 100% sure if this disadvantage is real or an urban legend.  Even if we assume it is real, it does not matter that flights are on a different time each day.

One thing to be careful about (that some players miss) is that on some LH flights, you may be taking off from your airport on each day of the week 1234567, if different take off times make return flights take off on "wrong" days, you may end up with something like 1134557, that's when you are really losing, because you are doubling the supply on some days, and having no supply on other days.  You can check that by clicking the demand (globe) icon of the return flight.

Offline knobbygb

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 11:02:10 PM »
Quote
Even if I schedule all these flights to depart at the same time of the day, would the system view them as 3 separate flights not flying frequent enough

Although JumboShrimp already answered, I just thought it's worth clarifying, as it's an important point: Flying to the destination with different aircraft (i.e. different flight numbers on different days), is still seen by the system as one "route" so you will NOT be penalised.  Making the flights at the exact same time is not necessary either.

As you gain more experience, it'll become second nature scheduling those aircraft to get the most from them on longer routes.  You'll be able to tell at a glance which route pairs will need one a/c, which two, which ones would be better for 7-day scheduling etc.  and you'll learn (probably by mistakes) what all the pitfalls are (such as JS's point about checking return days for example).  It's all part of the challenge of the game.

Offline pa425804

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 02:11:59 AM »
Although JumboShrimp already answered, I just thought it's worth clarifying, as it's an important point: Flying to the destination with different aircraft (i.e. different flight numbers on different days), is still seen by the system as one "route" so you will NOT be penalised.  Making the flights at the exact same time is not necessary either.

As you gain more experience, it'll become second nature scheduling those aircraft to get the most from them on longer routes.  You'll be able to tell at a glance which route pairs will need one a/c, which two, which ones would be better for 7-day scheduling etc.  and you'll learn (probably by mistakes) what all the pitfalls are (such as JS's point about checking return days for example).  It's all part of the challenge of the game.

Thanks for the clarification, it makes more sense now.  And since you mention about scheduling, is there any general guideline when to schedule 2 a/c on a route or when to schedule 7?  I know it does depend on a/c type (i.e. turnaround time), speed and mileage of the route pairs, but what are the considerations to get the decision?

Offline schro

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 04:33:28 AM »
Thanks for the clarification, it makes more sense now.  And since you mention about scheduling, is there any general guideline when to schedule 2 a/c on a route or when to schedule 7?  I know it does depend on a/c type (i.e. turnaround time), speed and mileage of the route pairs, but what are the considerations to get the decision?

Well, it can depend on your plane, slot availability and who knows what else. For me, I consider the following -

1. 1 a/c on a route when I can make the schedule such that I can squeaze in a daily flight with an A check. For a 757, this means up to about 3900nm.

2. 2 a/c works well when you have a route that is just barely too long to go daily on a single plane. I would pair this route with another shorter route - i.e. 4000nm plus a 3000ishnm route between two planes, so that each one is flying daily, just alternating between shorter/longer to help fit the A check in.

3. When the flight lenght pushes into the 13-15+ hour range per way, 7 day scheduling is usually the way to go, as you'll be able to fit 4-6 flights per week per frame.

Offline m320au

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 11:03:42 AM »
I would like to state that I find it disappointing that 6 x daily non-stop services from Frankfurt to New York using 757-200 aircraft can receive *fewer* passengers than 7 x daily A321's tech-stopping their way on the same route via Halifax when both airlines have the same CI.

Tech stops should be massively penalised *when non stop alternatives exist* - just as they are in the real world. Otherwise, the game becomes one of simply determining who can fly the smallest aircraft over the longest distance.

Regards
European One.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 11:06:11 AM by m320au »

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 11:24:33 AM »
I think we will see transatlantic props via Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland with these new extra tech stops  :D
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2012, 11:32:28 AM »
I guess in my next game I'll use F27 or F50 from LHR via BIKF and BGBW to YYZ just to p*ss off those ***** ******** ***** **** (just put in any bad words preferably in the strength of Vittus) using A321 on these routes.....

Said that in a different topic, alex :P

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2012, 11:34:09 AM »
I would like to state that I find it disappointing that 6 x daily non-stop services from Frankfurt to New York using 757-200 aircraft can receive *fewer* passengers than 7 x daily A321's tech-stopping their way on the same route via Halifax when both airlines have the same CI.

Tech stops should be massively penalised *when non stop alternatives exist* - just as they are in the real world. Otherwise, the game becomes one of simply determining who can fly the smallest aircraft over the longest distance.

Regards
European One.


Wow you found out the biggest issue with this game... quickthinker!! :P it's only been discussed about a year!!

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2012, 12:21:25 PM »
Said that in a different topic, alex :P

Yes I do remember that now. F27 now truly a Heathrow plane.

CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline knobbygb

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 03:20:39 PM »
Quote
1. 1 a/c on a route when I can make the schedule such that I can squeaze in a daily flight with an A check. For a 757, this means up to about 3900nm.

2. 2 a/c works well when you have a route that is just barely too long to go daily on a single plane. I would pair this route with another shorter route - i.e. 4000nm plus a 3000ishnm route between two planes, so that each one is flying daily, just alternating between shorter/longer to help fit the A check in.

3. When the flight lenght pushes into the 13-15+ hour range per way, 7 day scheduling is usually the way to go, as you'll be able to fit 4-6 flights per week per frame.

This sums up my strategy perfectly.  Just one other option you may not have considered.  For approx. 3500nm to 4500nm flights, simply fly each of six routes six times weekly with six aircraft and then have a seventh aircraft which is used solely for filling in the gaps - one different destination per day.  Make sure the "off-day" on each route falls on a different day and that the routes are approximately the same length and timings (within a few hours).  This isn't quite as efficient as full-blown seven-day scheduling, but it's easier to set up, with some forward planing.  In the time left over after the A-Checks you should also be able to hit a short (<2000nm) route each day too! So you have the desired outcome - seven aircraft, seven routes, seven days per week.
(Seven deadly sins, Seven ways to win, seven holy paths to hell and your trip begins...)   :-[ Ooops, sorry, just happen to be listening to Maiden right now.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 03:23:14 PM by knobbygb »

vitongwangki

  • Former member
Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2012, 03:43:18 PM »
Wow you found out the biggest issue with this game... quickthinker!! :P it's only been discussed about a year!!
Argued too. lol

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 03:52:37 PM »
Argued too. lol

Not so easy to outlaw it when some alliances are founded upon it  ::)
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

vitongwangki

  • Former member
Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 04:00:13 PM »
Not so easy to outlaw it when some alliances are founded upon it  ::)
I think they can't claim the patent since it appears before their alliance appears, but in my opinion they are experts in that. ;)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 06:39:38 PM »
I would like to state that I find it disappointing that 6 x daily non-stop services from Frankfurt to New York using 757-200 aircraft can receive *fewer* passengers than 7 x daily A321's tech-stopping their way on the same route via Halifax when both airlines have the same CI.

Tech stops should be massively penalised *when non stop alternatives exist* - just as they are in the real world. Otherwise, the game becomes one of simply determining who can fly the smallest aircraft over the longest distance.

Regards
European One.

Iteresting to see a someone flying 752 trans-atlantic complaining his competitor's size of aircraft.  Especially A321, which is about the same size as 752.

Swiftus would get a kick out of this post...

Offline mark320

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 07:48:34 PM »
Well, in the industry there exists a simple formula to work out market share from frequency, type (category) of aircraft and number of stops. this would certainly stop this ridiculous situation.

One just needs to ask.


Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Long Haul Flight Route Frequency
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 08:04:24 PM »
Well, in the industry there exists a simple formula to work out market share from frequency, type (category) of aircraft and number of stops. this would certainly stop this ridiculous situation.

One just needs to ask.

Some people would say that it is almost equally ridiculous to fly 757 transatlantic.  It is not common in RL.  It is smaller than typical aircraft for those flights (A330, 767, 772) and gets a huge frequency advantage over this more appropriate aircraft.

I posted an idea that might solve this problem here:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,38007.0.html

 

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