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Author Topic: New player protection system  (Read 4725 times)

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2014, 12:49:55 PM »
@ bdnascar3

To be honest, that's not going to help. Weren't you the guy who started out of LAX in GW#4 several times, each time BK'ing himself because of poor aircraft and scheduling choice?


@ Topic

Newbie protection at the end is useless, because the main problem in AirwaySim is not the fact new players got bashed by older ones (like it is in browsergames with a military part) but because new _AND_ many old players make massive mistakes and many never learn from them.


AirwaySim already has massive aggression reducing rules in place. Actually AWS rules basically forbid _everything_ to compete. Basically the rules say: "Let the smaller player grow until he's bigger than you, then you're allowed to fight back until you're bigger again."

For once I'm with LemonButt: We should encourage players to start somewhere they don't compete directly with one of the huge airlines and we should allow airlines to fight (!) to make it more interesting for big airlines again.

The 600 aircraft basing system is a good step for the first thing, to encourage players to start out of Tier 2 and smaller Tier 1 airports and still be successful. City based demand will encourage this even further.

However, what's now needed is to revoke the anti-competition rules completely and replace them by something like "airlines younger than 6 month must not be attacked". That's an easy rule everybody can understand and it's easy for sami to wach and ensure it.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2014, 01:54:39 PM »
I think this is a bad idea.  We shouldn't encourage new players to start at crowded/competitive airports and give them training wheels, but rather they should be starting at secondary airports until they understand the fundamentals of the game.  Once they are successful in the minors, they can move up to the big leagues.  There is already too much other players can do at another player's detriment (i.e. slots) and if you want to unlevel the playing field and prohibit other a player from opening up routes, well that is just wrong IMO.  If you don't want to get burned, don't play with fire.  And this is coming from me, an outspoken player for the little guy.

There is absolutely nothing about the idea that encourages or discourages a player to start at small or large airport.

As far as limiting an existing player from attacking a newly started airline (knowingly or not) - yes, absolutely.  All MMU games do it.  I an surprised why AWS is the only one I know about that does not.

This is the behavior it would automatically stop:
- new airline starts at (any sized) airport
- new airline starts to fly underserved routes
- existing big airline "all of the sudden" realizes all those routes were under served, adds capacity, either kills the new airline outright, or severely cripples it.

All a new airline can manage to typically serve is perhaps 20 destinations.  The new system would not prevent your airline from:
- adding capacity on any route in your own first 6 months of your life
- adding capacity on the other 380 out of 400 viable destinations, only 20 out of 400 viable destinations with a new airline on it
- adding capacity on those 20 routes in question anytime before and anytime after the restricted period.  The new games are some 35 years long.  6 month restriction is a very small limitation.  1/70 of the length of the game on 20/400 destinations.

What is your probability of being limited by this, as an existing airline?  1 in 1400 (= 1/70 * 20 / 400).

That is a very approximate likelihood of you being limited.  Or 0.07%.

Now this is what goes on:  Some existing airlines direct 100% of their new capacity attacking a newly formed airline, very often undetected and unreported.  These are after all new players, new airlines that are being targeted, the least likely one to report these violations.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2014, 02:14:24 PM »
AirwaySim already has massive aggression reducing rules in place. Actually AWS rules basically forbid _everything_ to compete. Basically the rules say: "Let the smaller player grow until he's bigger than you, then you're allowed to fight back until you're bigger again."

No, this system would be very explicit.  You can't attack a new airline while it is new, but you can do your worst after that initial period.  No gray area, you could not be accused of targeting, you would not be presumed guilty.  If the system allows it, you are fine.  If it is not fine, the system will not allow opening that route...

For once I'm with LemonButt: We should encourage players to start somewhere they don't compete directly with one of the huge airlines and we should allow airlines to fight (!) to make it more interesting for big airlines again.

The 600 aircraft basing system is a good step for the first thing, to encourage players to start out of Tier 2 and smaller Tier 1 airports and still be successful. City based demand will encourage this even further.

This is not about what happens when the game world starts.  This is about existing games, in progress.  With the new basing system, even Tier 2 will likely have large airlines based in them.  And in the Tier 2 airports, targeting is actually far more damaging than at a large airport.

Example Tier 2:
- New player adds 150 supply on an unserved route with 150 demand
- Old airline adds 150 supply on the same route

Example Tier 1
- old airline servers 1350 supply on route with 1500 demand
- new airline adds 150 supply on the same route
- The old airline would have to add capacity of 1500 to cause equal amount of damage as in Tier 2

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2014, 02:19:43 PM »
Hi. Thoughts from a nearly new player.

To be accurate, I did play beginner's 3 weeks, before switching to brand new GW3. The thing is, I did do my homework, more or less. I did choose an average base airport(Glasgow), read toroughly the rules, the FAQ's, the advice, and so on. Though not all-powerful, my company is rather strong for a newbie who made plenty of mistakes. I've got 4 bases now, and the smaller ones are the ones who make the most cash. In the meantime, my 2 initial opponents in Glasgow did die a painful death.

Lessons learned :
(1)don't mess with big lines if you're not absolutely ready to face cutthroat competition. I've lost a lot of feathers in a mistaken try there. Pilots costs, communality costs are real killers there.
(2)do your homework : if you regularly check your ticket prices, load factors and opposition evolution, you can adapt & get more money from your planes
(3)mistakes are costly. You have to learn from them or die.
(4)I attacked my opponents only when their failure became obvious(i.e. -4M pee quarter 2 quarters in a row, and no perspectives for a rebound). I mainly wanted to be sure I'd have lines already operational on every space they'd leave empty as soon as they'd die. I could have attacked them earlier, with greater risks from me.

(3) is what makes the game fun to me. AWS is an intelligent game, that shows us our own stupidity. It reminds me somewhat Cities in motion, to an extent. But it can be fearful to less careful players, that dream of a beefed up version of airlines manager 2(where opposition is only in the standings, not in the airports).

So the thing is : how not to scare those less careful players to death? I'd say by some kind of tutorial elements. Examples :
(a)I've got 2 737-200. I want to buy a 737-300. A pop-up warns me with communality costs.(but does not prevent me, if I want to be stupid...)
(b)12 companies did settle in ORD, including year-long veterans full of achievements. I'm a complete newbie. A pop-up warns me about "cutthroat competion" at this airport.(but does not prevent me, if I want to be stupid...)
(c)I'm about investing 50% of my expenses in marketing in a 3-years, 5-media campaign for a Bergen-Paderborn route. A pop-up warns me that it could sink my company.(but does not prevent me, if I want to be stupid...)
(d)My MD80s fly only 5.5 hours per day. A pop-up warns me that I cannot earn money like that.(but does not create more lines for me, if I want to be stupid...)

etc..... could be a "tutorial mode", deactivable at wish, that would have a few alerts like that. If player wants to bypass, well, there's a lesson to be learned(or not, it could be part of a clever strategy - just most of the time it will just be a mistake). From what I've heard about WoW, the new player is guided for a very long part of the game. It shall not be so in AWS, a game that appeals to a smaller niche of players, but still, some elements of guidance should really avoid the worse mistakes.

One of my opponents in Glasgow, called CalAir, died because he did not anticipate opposition. He had somewhat good lines, but was slowly but surely smothered by growing opposition from outside. That's life. I accelerated his demise by opening lines to Stockholm & Leeds, but he was already in the red at the time, with no hope of recovery. I hope he learned a lesson(about game dynamics, i.e. a line gushing cash is not forever, it WILL attract thirsty opposition. just a matter of time).

The other one, FlyUK, though, had only 2 lines(to Heathrow & Gatwick), and a plane utilization of 5.5 hours per day! Opposition on Heathrow was already big, I just had to plan several lines to Gatwick to finish him off(and take my share of the Gatwick line) - but he was doomed anyways. That's the kind of players that would really be helped by some kind of alert. Unless he just disconnected, I don't know - but for those, there is nothing to do.

(there's a new competitor focused on long-haul, a domain I'm avoiding on purpose. I wish him good luck - he might need it).

TL;DR : some kind of alarms, or pop-up, could warn the new player about the standard stupid mistakes, and help him thrive if he is wise enough to follow them.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2014, 02:27:22 PM »
One more thought:

Some players are not even aware of the targeting rule being in place, or (falsely?) claim ignorance.  Or, they truly don't know they are adding capacity on a route of a new airline (if the airline is at the destination airport).

This change would take all ambiguity / guessing out, it would be system enforced.  The vague rule about targeting can then be removed from the manual.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2014, 02:30:40 PM »
No, this system would be very explicit.  You can't attack a new airline while it is new, but you can do your worst after that initial period.  No gray area, you could not be accused of targeting, you would not be presumed guilty.  If the system allows it, you are fine.  If it is not fine, the system will not allow opening that route...

I talked about the current rule system. :)

This is not about what happens when the game world starts.  This is about existing games, in progress.  With the new basing system, even Tier 2 will likely have large airlines based in them.  And in the Tier 2 airports, targeting is actually far more damaging than at a large airport.

I don't agree with you in this one. Most if not all good players will concentrate the numbers of aircraft they are allowed now to one or two airports, what makes most sense due to the extreme staff costs at your HQ when you open a base.

People who spread their bases and aircraft will be vulnerable. People who start out of a smaller airport have several years of mostly competition free game before maybe somebody starts to base there - but now they can also base at an empty or weak top airport and are not limited to 100 aircraft, but can try to maximize this airport with the 600 allowed aircraft.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2014, 02:48:34 PM »
Jumbo--I don't know how you play the game, but if I put in an order for 100 aircraft I already have them scheduled.  If you tell me when the aircraft show up, I can't open the routes I already had planned because some new player jumped into my base, then that is just wrong.  And yes, it does matter because when you are maximizing your utilization there might only be 1 route that you can fly to fill a schedule thanks to slot restrictions, curfews, etc.

The bottom line is new airlines CHOOSE to be at a specific airport with known competition.  Those established airlines didn't choose to compete with those new airlines, but are forced to by default.  They didn't land on plymouth rock--plymouth rock landed on them.  So if a new player CHOOSES to compete with an established airline, an established airline must be able to compete back.

I have a successful airline in GW2. I opened up in ORD where two of the Top 10 airlines in the game are based and there were 3 hour deadzones in the morning and afternoon with zero slots available.  I could have picked an easier airport, but I made the CHOICE to compete with them and also base at ORD.  So my advice to a new player is don't base at an airport unless you want to compete with the airlines already there, which should be obvious.

I think the real problem with AWS players is that their concept of competition is scorched earth, when really there is no reason multiple airlines can't coexist and "win" with their respective strategies.  It goes back to competing with strategy versus "winning".

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2014, 03:10:36 PM »
Jumbo--I don't know how you play the game, but if I put in an order for 100 aircraft I already have them scheduled.  If you tell me when the aircraft show up, I can't open the routes I already had planned because some new player jumped into my base, then that is just wrong.  And yes, it does matter because when you are maximizing your utilization there might only be 1 route that you can fly to fill a schedule thanks to slot restrictions, curfews, etc.

How often do you really schedule your aircraft after the initial growth period?  I do maybe once per RL week.  So I get to scheduling, and I can't fly right this moment to the destination because of a new player.  All right, I will get to it next time.

6 month "protection" period is less than 4.5 RL days in slow games, even less in faster games.

You are making it sound like drama, but the restriction is really minor, will be barely noticeable.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2014, 09:11:41 PM »
I joined GameWorld #2 late to help my alliance and ran into a problem I never realized (as I normally do not join late in a game):

It's the year 2012 and I can basically not find a good aircraft.

The reasons for that are several:
1) Very attractive lines that offer high efficiency are not available anymore, like Airbus A300-600R. For late starters it's one of the best aircraft because it offers extremely high efficiency even during high fuel price times and acceptable leasing costs for new and used aircraft.
2) New aircraft are too expensive to lease. If an alliance mate would get me 777 or A330 (the only real useful aircraft in 2012 for longhaul) even the 90% allowed minimum alliance lease is too high to ensure enough profit on those aircraft.
3) Alternatives have full production lines. There's no possibility for me to get even 7x 787 for example.
4) Extreme lease prices even for A320/737NG.


So, as a new player I'm stuck to old used market stuff that is neither what I really want nor what I really need. I must use it because there are no alternatives and it really reduces fun.

I'm not sure how to solve these things (maybe prevent A300 line from closing), just something to think about. And, to be honest, as a consequence from this I step back from joining running games again. Either you start at day 0 or - in longtime gameworlds - before the year 2000 or things are incredibly difficult due to game mechanics.

Making a small airline would maybe work, however, there's still the new challenge feature that doesn't work with small airlines when the goal is to transport as many pax as possible.

Offline [ATA] frimp

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2014, 09:36:53 PM »
From my experience there is no such thing as "player protection" and its always a struggle to start up vs established airlines.


I'm running an experimental airline in gw4 against an established player and make minimal profits with a single fleet of cheaply leased B732ADV with over 17hrs of utilisation.
To be fair the routes are covered well by the competition but AWS should still allow players to challenge an established airline who is operating on his own in a big airport..
I do have a suspicion that prices are being slashed against my airline to make things tough but nevertheless this would highlight the fact again that there isn't such thing as player protection.

ultimately this isn't good for the whole of AWS as many newer players will turn away from the game and will not be encouraged to operate from the so called larger airports.


Offline LemonButt

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2014, 09:44:17 PM »
From my experience there is no such thing as "player protection" and its always a struggle to start up vs established airlines.

IMO it is easier to compete with established airlines versus new ones.  In business in general it is easier to break into a mature marketplace versus a new one because you already know what the competition is doing.  For example, I opened up in ORD in GW2 against two competitors and they had already covered every route.  I didn't have to worry about opening up a route and then having them dump a bunch of flights on top of me, reducing my margins.  Instead, I was the one doing the dumping :)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2014, 09:58:09 PM »
I joined GameWorld #2 late to help my alliance and ran into a problem I never realized (as I normally do not join late in a game):

It's the year 2012 and I can basically not find a good aircraft.

The reasons for that are several:
1) Very attractive lines that offer high efficiency are not available anymore, like Airbus A300-600R. For late starters it's one of the best aircraft because it offers extremely high efficiency even during high fuel price times and acceptable leasing costs for new and used aircraft.
2) New aircraft are too expensive to lease. If an alliance mate would get me 777 or A330 (the only real useful aircraft in 2012 for longhaul) even the 90% allowed minimum alliance lease is too high to ensure enough profit on those aircraft.
3) Alternatives have full production lines. There's no possibility for me to get even 7x 787 for example.
4) Extreme lease prices even for A320/737NG.


So, as a new player I'm stuck to old used market stuff that is neither what I really want nor what I really need. I must use it because there are no alternatives and it really reduces fun.

I'm not sure how to solve these things (maybe prevent A300 line from closing), just something to think about. And, to be honest, as a consequence from this I step back from joining running games again. Either you start at day 0 or - in longtime gameworlds - before the year 2000 or things are incredibly difficult due to game mechanics.

Making a small airline would maybe work, however, there's still the new challenge feature that doesn't work with small airlines when the goal is to transport as many pax as possible.

There are plenty of challenges for a new airline joining late (limited availability of aircraft one of them).  That's just what it is, we can't pull aircraft out of thin air.

But what can be changed is giving new entrant some breathing room, protection from attacks in first days of life.

All other Massively Multiplayer Online Games have some sort of protection for new players - for a good reason.  These other companies want the new players to stay, to continue to play.  They don't want them to be blown away right away - especially due to no fault of their own.

The reporting of this sort of abuse is almost non-existent.  New players have no idea what is going on, and are least likely to report it.  Experienced players, who do know what is going on, and would report - they mostly start on Day 1, so they don't experience it.

Since this must be one of the least favorite and the most tedious activity for Sami to deal with, why not offload it to the software, to be dealt with automatically?

And more importantly, prevent it from happening in the first place.  What benefit is an administrative action to an airline that is already dead, or irreparably crippled due to incumbent player targeting?  And any kind of penalty / punishment is likely a slap on a wrist to a big established airline.  So using the gaming theory, targeting / destroying a new airline is absolutely the correct course of action.  The benefit far outweigh the very unlikely potential cost (administrative penalties).

Online Sami

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2014, 10:57:35 PM »
I do agree on the principle idea here, but how to make it work without limiting existing players too much is another story. If we put in too heavy limitations we could even see partners opening airlines just to limit the operations of someone else on purpose ....

(The changes to start-up money have done a lot of good already)

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2014, 11:02:57 PM »
I would enforce players to play "better" and look for airports where they are not face a strong competitor from day 1. The higher aircraft limit on bases is a very good step for doing so.

People who start at the airport of an established airline with basically all routes filled up very well don't need "protection" from this player. They chose their fate on free decision and hopefully learn.
It still might help to not close 1-2 key production lines even if there are no immediate new orders.

(I encounter this in GW#2 and that's ok. I knew starting late out of Hong Kong is a problem)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2014, 11:25:16 PM »
I do agree on the principle idea here, but how to make it work without limiting existing players too much is another story. If we put in too heavy limitations we could even see partners opening airlines just to limit the operations of someone else on purpose ....

(The changes to start-up money have done a lot of good already)

Maybe one idea (to prevent abuse) would be to relax the limitation to only up to 25 (or you pick a number) of the newest routes (destinations) of the new airline (less than 6 months old) to be protected.

But that's more programming.  I would just go by age (up to 6 months), and if it causes too much upheaval, than the protection could be narrowed to only certain number of routes.

The extra start up money does allow a new airline to have more aircraft, to spread its routes - which makes them less dependent on a handful of critical routes in early stages.  But, as I mentioned in the PM, that alone does not stop some of the incumbents from targeting new airlines on a much greater scale now, targeting 10-20 routes...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 11:34:37 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2014, 11:41:57 PM »
We must also now what a "new" airline is. For me a new airline is an airline below 365 days since founding that has no aircraft sponsor and doesn't expand aggressively into my territory.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2014, 12:08:17 AM »
We must also now what a "new" airline is. For me a new airline is an airline below 365 days since founding that has no aircraft sponsor and doesn't expand aggressively into my territory.

I think 6 months is a good limit for protection.  1 year would be too long.  6 months is usually more than enough time to become profitable.  That's about as much as an automated system is capable of knowing,

As far as the new airline, it is free to expand anywhere.  The only limitation is on the incumbent.  For a very limited time, the incumbent is only allowed to expand where this new airline is not expanding.

Offline schro

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2014, 12:14:20 AM »
(d)My MD80s fly only 5.5 hours per day. A pop-up warns me that I cannot earn money like that.(but does not create more lines for me, if I want to be stupid...)

FYI, I have 400 MD80's, 520 737NGs and 140 767s with an average fleet utilization of 5.7 hours per day in GW1 and I'm making over 60m per week ;-).

Online Sami

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2015, 01:17:45 PM »
For a longer time the emphasis has been on making the game easier to understand for all new players. This is still ongoing, and another aspect of this is to help players get past the (sometimes) very hard start in crowded long game worlds where routes are already saturated rather well. Some planned changes to help new players to stay in the games longer are:

 - Route image of initial routes is boosted (when new airline joins a game late after start): First destination gets RI50, second RI25, third RI10 and rest start from zero after that.

 - Initial company level of a new airline is (mildly) boosted. It's a gamewide setting already and usually the image is set to start from 5pts but could be increased to 15pts for airlines entering later.

Neither of these effects are not in force when the game initially starts, but would gradually grow so that they reach the full level at let's say 180d after game has started.

The start-up money levels were already adjusted previously to implement a late-starter advantage, but these two changes would make the initial operations on crowded routes easier; increasing the chance of succeeding the hard initial start.


Further, two major features are in the planning:

  - Ability to start with a pre-created airline. When game world is joined the player has the option to create the airline from scratch (like now) or start with an automatically created simple and small airline (at a base of his choice). The airline would be either a small or medium-class company, depending on player's choice (longhaul initial start is not supported since creating the schedules for that automatically is complicated) - which means that the initial start-up money will be used to lease 2-4 planes off the used market and the system will then automatically create routes and basic schedules for them (along with other necessary first-step settings like correct staffing and marketing). Naturally the aircraft selection would be "smart" to avoid costly fleet mistakes and so forth. Research has shown that the initial steps needed to make the airline work are overwhelming for some players and they don't understand it fully, leading to mistakes and game abandoment. Bringing this feature is one of the main development goals at this moment, and it's already partly completed since we can create AI-controlled airlines already.

  - Further feature is the possible creation of a live tutorial or assistant, which would present the main functions and features of the game to the player. Initially it is supposed to be a fully static system just giving an overview of what he sees and can do (based on his pre-created airline). This would hopefully also make new players understand more about the different features.


None of these pose any limitations or rules to any existing players, nor make the position of people who started on day 1 any worse. The intention is not to increase regulation, but instead give small boosts for new players or players starting in the mid of long games (but still keep it reasonable).



--

Update:

Another feature linked to this same issue is the provision for discounts on airport operation fees. These are frequently given by airports for airlines starting a new route (old ones too), for the first year or so. But we could have them only for new airlines instead.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 06:08:09 AM by sami »

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: New player protection system
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2015, 01:07:23 PM »
In my opinion the game does not need to be made any easier.

The world is too focused on making things easier for the people who want to put in very little effort yet want the maximum return and same rewards as players who make a lot of effort....as an example this can also be applied to sports, etc, etc

The problem is - new players in general do not take the time to do any research, read the forums, look at You Tubes, etc, etc......and then when they make mistakes they want to blame it on everyone else being mean to them crushing them, etc, etc...whereas the real reason for their failure is due to their lack of effort. (e.g. how many times do we see the same...how do you do a 7 day schedule post...yet all of the information is there at the search button)

Make it as easy as you want and you will still get the same players with the same complaints, same reasons for failure and then still leaving the game.

Shift your focus to get the results you want
Focus instead on retaining your current players by introducing more challenges and new features...word of mouth from very satisfied players is your best source of new long term players.
The change I would recommend is to make it that every alliance has to consist of a minimum of 20% of new players (new can be defined by time playing the game)
This should help in changing the alliances focus from 'beating everyone' to 'helping everyone' and thereby making it a better game for us all as new players get a 'leg-up' and newish players get to learn how to play a better game.
Currently some alliances are stacked with the games best players....how does this help the game grow?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 01:24:50 PM by Kadachiman »

 

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