AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: So where did all the used 757s come from?  (Read 2175 times)

minerva

  • Former member
So where did all the used 757s come from?
« on: December 17, 2011, 02:33:22 AM »
From almost nothing to 150+....?  I didn't notice multiple large BKs, so where did all these used 757-200s come from?

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2011, 05:00:13 AM »
The production slots that aren't filled by airlines are snatched up by the brokers at the last minute.  At the beginning of the game when no one could afford a new B757 the brokers were building their inventories from the empty production line slots.

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14535
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 08:33:56 AM »
I saw from stats that nearly all of the storages were empty (not for 757 but most of the planes), so had to generate a bit more used birds to the world. This is something that is done only very rarely and not a standard by any means, but had to do it this time as possible new airlines would have been in trouble soon without ANY planes to choose from.

Offline Maarten Otto

  • Members
  • Posts: 1276
    • My photo site
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2011, 08:43:10 AM »
[god mode on]
Make some planes
[god mode out]
 ;D

Phetoy6

  • Former member
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 09:19:08 AM »
I saw from stats that nearly all of the storages were empty (not for 757 but most of the planes), so had to generate a bit more used birds to the world. This is something that is done only very rarely and not a standard by any means, but had to do it this time as possible new airlines would have been in trouble soon without ANY planes to choose from.

^^
Wise :D

Offline alexgv1

  • Members
  • Posts: 2184
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 12:33:44 PM »
This magic used market plane injection is becoming quite a regular occurrence in MT now... Seems just after the players kick up a fuss.

Just an observation.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

minerva

  • Former member
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 03:19:34 PM »
Hmm, I suspected the 'god' mode had been activated.

I understand the reasoning, but this goes against the logic of production, supply and demand that I, and others, were defending in other posts on the used market whine thread.  Sigh....

I really can't wait now for the promised long term/AI start up worlds, which hopefully will stay consistent and not be tampered with half way through.





 


Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 03:35:28 PM »
I saw from stats that nearly all of the storages were empty (not for 757 but most of the planes), so had to generate a bit more used birds to the world. This is something that is done only very rarely and not a standard by any means, but had to do it this time as possible new airlines would have been in trouble soon without ANY planes to choose from.

Hmm, I suspected the 'god' mode had been activated.

I understand the reasoning, but this goes against the logic of production, supply and demand that I, and others, were defending in other posts on the used market whine thread.  Sigh....

I really can't wait now for the promised long term/AI start up worlds, which hopefully will stay consistent and not be tampered with half way through.

I agree.  I think you made a big mistake doing this sami.  We have established there was a shortage of aircraft and just like any market, people reacted.  Airlines changed their strategies and fleet mixes to maximize their potential.  Let's assume you're flying out of an airport with one competitor who is flying a 100% B757 fleet.  You decide to use a different growth strategy because of the B757 shortage and get Tu204s which are easy to get and cheap to lease.  You're poised to grow faster and overtake your competitor within a year.  Then you turn on God mode and create a bunch of 757 out of thin air.  Now your competitor running B757s has the advantage because he has easier access to aircraft and you were dumb enough to respond the current market conditions versus whine like a little girl on the forums.  This is a bad precedent.

Personally, I've made huge investments and put forth $100+ million in prepaid leases to acquire new aircraft to REPLACE my 757 because I don't want to keep them due to the long production lines and used market shortage making it difficult to justify the extra fleet type when I only have a few of them.  However, my two main competitors are both building their B757 fleets to compete against me.  Instead of me having an edge on my competition, I either have less of an advantage or am now at a disadvantage (difficult to measure subjective terms like this).  I guess you could say I was a fool for thinking that the ubiquitous used aircraft market complaining was still falling on deaf ears.  Congratulations on undermining the entire point of the game--maximizing your output with the finite resources available.  Next time I'm short on aircraft and/or patience, I'll be sure to send you a pm telling you how much I hate things so you can flip a few switches to ease my pain.

Offline alexgv1

  • Members
  • Posts: 2184
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 04:23:27 PM »
To be fair I'm a simple guy and easily pleased. I'm not complaining, I got 3 737s from the used market today...  nearly forgot what it was like to see aircraft when you made a call.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline alexgv1

  • Members
  • Posts: 2184
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 05:21:20 PM »
 :(   :'(
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Online JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5992
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 07:57:55 PM »
I agree.  I think you made a big mistake doing this sami.  We have established there was a shortage of aircraft and just like any market, people reacted.  Airlines changed their strategies and fleet mixes to maximize their potential.  Let's assume you're flying out of an airport with one competitor who is flying a 100% B757 fleet.  You decide to use a different growth strategy because of the B757 shortage and get Tu204s which are easy to get and cheap to lease.  You're poised to grow faster and overtake your competitor within a year.  Then you turn on God mode and create a bunch of 757 out of thin air.  Now your competitor running B757s has the advantage because he has easier access to aircraft and you were dumb enough to respond the current market conditions versus whine like a little girl on the forums.  This is a bad precedent.

I don't think the issue of airlines starting late in te game world (Let's say 1 year to 7 years after the start) has ever been addressed adequately.  That's why we have the "injections" of aircraft to the used market.  If you are looking at it strictly as you vs. your competitors, you may have a point.

But out of 650 airlines, perhaps 1/3 will bankrupt and restart within first 10 years, and there is nothing for them to use.  That's a bigger issue for Sami to think about than individual competitions at a particular base.

I don't think this issue has a solution if the used market is going to be one solution for all playability issues.

I think the new airlines should be able to access a parallel market where they can buy/lease new aircraft, up to certain dollar amount (amount depending on the game year).  That way we separate the playability issue of start up airlines from the ongoing used market.

L1011fan

  • Former member
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 10:13:31 PM »
All I know is I'm very happy with the 757's I was able to add to my fleet!

Offline Kadachiman

  • Members
  • Posts: 914
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2011, 01:53:01 AM »
To take words from Dantes in another thread, we all need to read the writings of Karl Marx to play this game now  :(

Bottom line - it doesn't really matter how much you try to 'even' out the gameplay for all players as the cream will always rise to the top.
There will always be the players that devise a strategy and play the game well, and there will be those that get an attack of impatience and end up B/K.

It appears to be the 'impatient' players that are always complaining about the lack of good available aircraft whereas in reality it is normally their impatient and unorganised style of gameplay that is the cause of their problem.

Personally I really don't care what set of rules you put inplace as long as it is consistent and unchanged for the entire game world, otherwise players that actually have devised a strategy are disadvantaged, and the impatient whingers end up B/K anyway regardless of how many 'good planes' you give them.

As per another post on this subject - to take Russian metal for a limited period of time to get access to badly needed airframes during the initial years is actually a good strategy in a tight market, but in a 'free for all market' its now a bad to average strategy, therefore by changing the number of available aircraft during the game has put this player at a disadvantage trough no fault of his own just to help out a few whingers who probably have no strategy except to follow the herd mentality (regardless of the best intentions by Sami)

PS - I have actually benefited by scoring an additional 4 x A320-200's so far, but that is simply a matter of 'not looking a gift horse' in the mouth, as I had decided to buy out and sell my A320-200's due to the production line delays prior to this change.

Regards Darryl

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2011, 09:09:12 PM »
amen brother!

I've been preaching about a system where each player gets a certain amount of points instead of cash when they begin the game. For arguments sake, let's say 30 points.
With these points players can pick freely from a huge pool of equipment. (of course only AC that are already out :))

the "cost" of something like,
say, Saab 2000/Dash-8/ATR/etc = 3 points
737/321/MD-80 = 6 points
757/767/A310 = 7 points
777-200/A330/MD-11 = 10 points
747/777-300/A340-600 = 12 points
A380 = 15 points

With those being base points, you can get points deduction for planes being older than 10 years.
You can get points deduction for condition of AC, and other things that might make sense.

That way, any player who joins in, doesn't matter if it's 1 day into the game or 10 years after. Doesn't have to worry about getting the first planes to actually plan a strategy and enjoy the game from their playing day 1.

If you have points left and wanna use them on a plane you can convert money to use points you have left.
After your points are gone, you start paying for AC with cash.

The reason I feel it would be good to do this is because it somewhat mimics how it works in real life.
Where any startup without cash to buy would have to work with brokers and leasing companies to get a deal worthwhile, and they'd get enough planes to justify operation.

just my two cents

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2011, 09:22:39 PM »
To take words from Dantes in another thread, we all need to read the writings of Karl Marx to play this game now  :(

Bottom line - it doesn't really matter how much you try to 'even' out the gameplay for all players as the cream will always rise to the top.
There will always be the players that devise a strategy and play the game well, and there will be those that get an attack of impatience and end up B/K.

It appears to be the 'impatient' players that are always complaining about the lack of good available aircraft whereas in reality it is normally their impatient and unorganised style of gameplay that is the cause of their problem.

Regards Darryl


Impatience may be a reason, but you gotta understand that some people enjoy playing the game but don't have time to sit and monitor the game 24/7 and its used market.

there is a difference between cream rising to the top, and people with too much spare time on their hands, or in the rare case having a job that allows them to stare at the used market screen for days on end.

And I'm not saying there won't be players that are doing worse or better than others. It's just that the used market dictates TOO MUCH of the strategy and playability of the game.

If you truly wanna see who are good players, then get rid of the used market completely and make every f***ing make and model of any AC available, unlimited supply. Then the hours of hogging planes and slots no longer matter.

The ABC of an effective airline is cost! if you can fly A to B for 20% less money than your competition because you're running a lean company then customers WILL fly with you. If you've tried to lower your ticket price 50% in AWS, there isn't really any increase in LF. Yes, I've tried this.

Which begs the question, is the game engine itself too flawed to offer a good game experience, and will the cream still rise to the top based on novel ideas of AWS gameplay....

those being, slots, used market, and A330..... all that preferably @ LHR, ATL, LAX, JFK etc.

Online JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5992
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2011, 05:41:30 AM »
amen brother!

I've been preaching about a system where each player gets a certain amount of points instead of cash when they begin the game. For arguments sake, let's say 30 points.
With these points players can pick freely from a huge pool of equipment. (of course only AC that are already out :))

the "cost" of something like,
say, Saab 2000/Dash-8/ATR/etc = 3 points
737/321/MD-80 = 6 points
757/767/A310 = 7 points
777-200/A330/MD-11 = 10 points
747/777-300/A340-600 = 12 points
A380 = 15 points

Something along those lines might work.  Basically, the airline starting up would get some aircraft from a market that is different from regular used market.  We already have something along those lines in "instant" delivery from the same used market.  Maybe we could have the same instant delivery from somewhere else (we may say that a rich father, group of investors or a venture capital firm). 

With those being base points, you can get points deduction for planes being older than 10 years.
You can get points deduction for condition of AC, and other things that might make sense.

That way, any player who joins in, doesn't matter if it's 1 day into the game or 10 years after. Doesn't have to worry about getting the first planes to actually plan a strategy and enjoy the game from their playing day 1.

Yup.  Exactly.  Especially since the normal "Day 1" for a game like MTx only comes around once every 6 months.

The reason I feel it would be good to do this is because it somewhat mimics how it works in real life.
Where any startup without cash to buy would have to work with brokers and leasing companies to get a deal worthwhile, and they'd get enough planes to justify operation.

I am not sure about the parallel in real life.  IMO, this would be mainly for playability of the game.  New players starting late (or re-starting) would get the same experience first few days as the airlines starting on Day 1 of the game world.  After this initial period of aircraft availability (from a parallel universe), they would join the rest of the players in having access only to the regular new/used market...

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2011, 01:42:54 PM »
It seems the best setup for the game would be to have 2 used markets--1 that is subsidized and one that isn't.  Every airline less than 1 year gets access to the subsidized market, which exists thanks to government subsidies paying leasing companies to hold planes for new airlines to enter the market (kind of like the small business administration giving loans).  If an aircraft is on the subsidized market for 3 months, it automatically gets dumped into the non-subsidized market that everyone in the game has access to.  Everything function as it does now, but airlines less than 1 year old and aircraft on the used market less than 3 months are all flagged as startups/subsidizes and would have exclusive access to this pool of aircraft.  This means that most of the more popular fleet types will be unavailable to airlines older than 1 year and forces them into the new aircraft market (or choose different aircraft).  This would give anyone starting at anytime nearly the same opportunity for explosive growth that players experience when the game starts (although many routes will be filled already).  The only exception to this would be players selling aircraft on the used market, which would never be subsidized.

Offline Sanabas

  • Members
  • Posts: 2161
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2011, 02:10:15 PM »
Decent idea, but 1 year for airlines seems far too long, that's plenty of time to be raking in the cash, and 12 months into MT6 the used market was already more or less emptied of popular planes. 1 month old seems much better, and 1 month or even less for the planes would be fine too. That will give new airlines access to anywhere from 2-14 popular planes, depending on price. It should mean that plenty of planes still go through to the general market.

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2011, 02:47:27 PM »
Decent idea, but 1 year for airlines seems far too long, that's plenty of time to be raking in the cash, and 12 months into MT6 the used market was already more or less emptied of popular planes. 1 month old seems much better, and 1 month or even less for the planes would be fine too. That will give new airlines access to anywhere from 2-14 popular planes, depending on price. It should mean that plenty of planes still go through to the general market.

The problem is not getting a hold of 1 or 2 of the popular aircraft, but getting a hold of enough to overcome the overhead costs associated with having that fleet type.  It doesn't help anyone to get 1 or 2 B757 in the first month and unable to get any additional ones without a 5 year production list wait.  New airlines need to be able to get 10+ of the same aircraft to launch a viable airline, which is why I think 1 year is a good timeframe.

Online JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5992
Re: So where did all the used 757s come from?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2011, 03:11:05 PM »
Decent idea, but 1 year for airlines seems far too long, that's plenty of time to be raking in the cash, and 12 months into MT6 the used market was already more or less emptied of popular planes. 1 month old seems much better, and 1 month or even less for the planes would be fine too. That will give new airlines access to anywhere from 2-14 popular planes, depending on price. It should mean that plenty of planes still go through to the general market.

I agree that 1 year is too long.  I think something like 3-4 months would be more appropriate.  That should give a new airline enough time to gain a foothold.

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.