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Author Topic: Used Aircraft Market  (Read 10343 times)

Nlgravity

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2011, 08:32:26 PM »
what really p***es me off is that you're so arrogant towards your players who pay money to play.
when are you gonna stop hiding from the fact that the used market is so flawed that it limits the playability of the game?

There have been a BILLION good ideas on these forums on how to better the used market situation but you just sit back and add rules and "tweaks" to the engine.

Getting you to change something Sami is worse than getting Apple to change anything.

You are an idiot!
Dont you understand that if something changes to your advantage and helps you.... will also help the other 649 airlines in the game world and you would be in the same situation??

If you wake up tomorrow and there were hundreds of brand new airplanes that you need and at a price that you can afford, then you would have more planes, but so would the other 649 airlines. So the additional planes and the additional competition would cancel each other out, and you would be left with the same lousy strategy and problems that make you angry right now. While you complain about the used market (as if it were the reason why airlines fail) your competitors are spending money to get new planes delivered many years from today. So in 5 years, when you finally get a hold of 10 s***ty planes... your competition will have 100 new and fue efficient ones that will bankrupt you in months.

The used market is not bad... is just not good to you today; too many airlines chasing to few planes. So just do one of the following: 1- learn from your mistakes and change your strategy 2- go play on a different web site (and you'll find out that they all suck) 3- Shut up

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2011, 08:49:11 PM »
From the above point, look at what the "757 injection" did. Sure it was good for a few game weeks but then the planes we're swallowed up and it went back to the way it was before. Because everyone wanted these planes. Not that I criticise this method, many people benefited from the few extra planes although some more than others no doubt.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline eiva

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #82 on: December 29, 2011, 08:52:11 PM »
I think that ”super long” games would be a nice and natural way to solve the problem. Start a game in 1950 and allow a few players in. Increase the number of players in intervals of 5 or 10 years until we reach between 600 and 650 in 1995. The old players would build up a fleet of used planes and the market would be more realistic.

The unrealistic part of this game is that 650 airliners start the same month and everybody wants to have a substantial Boeing and/or Airbus fleet in 1 to 3 game years. It’s not very much that can be done without making it even more unrealistic.

I like the challenge this game offer. I like to think ahead. And I like to know that my action in mid December will affect me in February. Instant gratification is difficult to get here and I like it :-)

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2011, 09:01:55 PM »
Super long game worlds is currently worked on by Sami. While one bimbo even dare to call Sami arrogant, I appreciate the work and time that is put into this game to make us all stay behind the PC for so many hours.

@Nlgravity  Your on the good way, but partly right. It even turns worse then you predict. Most airlines will order more then they can slot in due to limited available runway capacity. This will create a massive backlog of dis-used aircrafts on your fleet. Yeah.... guess what happens to your bank balance if you need to pay leases and C checks while you can't fly them....

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2011, 09:25:28 PM »
Super long game worlds is currently worked on by Sami. While one bimbo even dare to call Sami arrogant, I appreciate the work and time that is put into this game to make us all stay behind the PC for so many hours.

@Nlgravity  Your on the good way, but partly right. It even turns worse then you predict. Most airlines will order more then they can slot in due to limited available runway capacity. This will create a massive backlog of dis-used aircrafts on your fleet. Yeah.... guess what happens to your bank balance if you need to pay leases and C checks while you can't fly them....

I think slots are less of a bottleneck now than before.  The bottleneck will be passenger demand (as it should).  Routes will be oversupplied, with several airlines flying them.  This will reduce LFs and profitability.  Some airlines will not make it due to competition...

With the aircraft in service and on order (most delivered within ~5 years) there will be enough aircraft to meet the world demand.  So at that point, quantity of aircraft will not be a bottleneck.  Airline efficiency is what will count.

This MT game world will have better supply of aircraft because of the extra production lines open (737 classic, MD lines).  So there will be a glut of aircraft from ~2005 and forward...

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2011, 09:46:34 PM »
Imagine the start time it will be 1950 or so. Therefore we do not speak of all rush for Boeing or Airbus fleet as Airbus will not even exist until this time and Boeing will suck until 377. I don't think there will be the same rush for A/B because the types will be introduced gradually.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #86 on: December 29, 2011, 10:11:54 PM »
Imagine the start time it will be 1950 or so. Therefore we do not speak of all rush for Boeing or Airbus fleet as Airbus will not even exist until this time and Boeing will suck until 377. I don't think there will be the same rush for A/B because the types will be introduced gradually.

Yes, but once a new aircraft type comes out, it's first come first served and the lines fill up quick.  We saw in DOTM that the 737 classic production line got 1000+ orders within 24 hours.  A possible solution could be to automatically adjust the production lines so that every airline has a chance to get any aircraft within 12 game months versus several years.  Airlines who do not get a good start in the game are a huge disadvantage when it comes to ordering new aircraft, no matter what the era.

Nlgravity

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #87 on: December 29, 2011, 11:23:04 PM »
@Nlgravity  Your on the good way, but partly right. It even turns worse then you predict.

Wjhat exactly are you referring to? What do I predict?

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2011, 04:06:09 AM »
Airlines who do not get a good start in the game are a huge disadvantage when it comes to ordering new aircraft, no matter what the era.

The above statement is the key to doing well in this game.

Get a good start (and some players always do e.g. Dantes & Curse)
- you are the first on the production lines to get an even bigger advantage over the rest
- you are the first to sell wanted planes to other players as you are upgrading first
- you get the best pax demand
- etc

Should this be changed to level it out? No, because you never will level it out as some players are just better than others, and as such they will keep modifying their strategy to stay at the top.

Get a bad start
- you get frustrated and grab planes that don't suit your strategy (I just did...damn it)
- you are faced with long queues to get your new planes
- due to some bad decisions you end up restarting at get an even worse start
- continuous downward spiral- wait for next game :-)
- etc

As for continuous changes...why?
- auction system - Dan will still have more money than us, so our next thread will be - Dan is buying all the auctioned planes waaa
- God mode turned on - more planes..yep...but unless you have the money, guess which players will get the majority of those planes
- etc

I for one vote for no more changes as the game / sim is very appealing to play as it is (thanks Sami)
Make it to easy and we will get bored, and if you think it is hard to play in its current form best thing to do is instead of watching the used plane market start studying players like Dantes to try to work out how he always seems to go to the top.

Learn the top players strategy and beat them at their own game, unless you actually do believe that they have a much higher IQ than the rest of us so we will never be capable of learning  ;D

Regards Darryl

vitongwangki

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #89 on: December 30, 2011, 04:54:08 AM »
I for one vote for no more changes as the game / sim is very appealing to play as it is (thanks Sami)
Make it to easy and we will get bored, and if you think it is hard to play in its current form best thing to do is instead of watching the used plane market start studying players like Dantes to try to work out how he always seems to go to the top.

Learn the top players strategy and beat them at their own game, unless you actually do believe that they have a much higher IQ than the rest of us so we will never be capable of learning  ;D

Regards Darryl
I agree with Darryl that some top players have better strategy to stay on top in every gameworld. In detail, strategy for start and strategy to maintain (competition, fleet replacement) is different. I agree Dantes is very strong in start (at least I can only barely beat him on ASK in MT5 for one or two quarter)However, if you know yourself is not strong in start, try to learn their strategy (like figure out which plane is the best for your airport, and the scheduling technique). Otherwise, go for conservative strategy to maintain your airline, with high profit margin, protect your airline from giants predation. :D (Honestly, expansion needs strategy and planning, those ordered most aircraft could fall one day if they don't maintain their airline well)

For those who want to know the tips in start, I think we could write up a thread. Sad point is I don't have much time :S

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #90 on: December 30, 2011, 06:09:03 AM »
Get a bad start
- you get frustrated and grab planes that don't suit your strategy (I just did...damn it)
- you are faced with long queues to get your new planes
- due to some bad decisions you end up restarting at get an even worse start
- continuous downward spiral- wait for next game :-)
- etc

There are brilliant starts, good starts, bad starts (as was my case of re-start in MT6).  But there are impossible starts.  Try thinking what you would do starting today.  I just got a PM from a player who just started, and I truly had hard to give a reasonable advice.  Nothing on the used market, the closest (somewhat) reasonable aircraft to lease as new is 1  or more years away.  Those odds could still be overcome, especially in a long game world, such as MT6 by the best players, but the players starting now are more likely going to be less experienced players.

If you think of AWS as some club of insiders who don't care about any new people becoming members, then this is not a problem.  But if you think of AWS as a growing community of aviation enthusiasts, then I think it is something that is worth thinking about.  Giving new players some ability to start at any time is something that should be considered seriously.

In other online games (of all kinds, war games, simulations) there are mechanisms that give new players opportunity to start at any time.  AWS should have something like this.  This is all it would be, an opportunity to have a reasonable start (not a guarantee of survival or success).

Something like this might be one way to go:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,36855.0.html

As for continuous changes...why?
- auction system - Dan will still have more money than us, so our next thread will be - Dan is buying all the auctioned planes waaa
- God mode turned on - more planes..yep...but unless you have the money, guess which players will get the majority of those planes
- etc

The used market mechanics have really been fine tuned, and is working fine as is.  It is really much better than I imagine it would ever be.

As far as what is on the used market, that's a separate issue.  If it is basically empty for existing airlines, that is part of the game.  Start of any game world can be considered an aviation boom time, with not much idle capacity.

The only thing that remains an issue (IMO) is inability of airlines to start certain time period, which is why I would encourage a change to how airlines start, and that change to be independent of everything else (used market in particular) that is working fine.  It would eliminate the need for the "God Mode" addition of aircraft, that in the end benefit the established airlines far more than newly started airlines.

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #91 on: December 30, 2011, 06:44:16 AM »
I have been going (again) for 122 game days and I have managed to grab 7 'competed for' planes, so they are there.
So you could classify me as a late starter as I restarted after the 'God day' I really don't know how Sami could program in a 'new starter' mode that would not be abused.

I can see it already - a pool of desirable planes for new starters only .... only to see a 'mate' of an established player log in, grab a few planes, skype his mate, go broke, and there you go...a gift.
Call me a cynic but unfortunately I have seen proof on these threads already as to what extent some 'players' will go to and have the nerve to call it 'fair play'

Edit - the restart was due to an over zealous grab of leased MD11's which a competitor at the same airport noticed and put a fleet of more fuel efficient planes on the same routes as me....bloody good play by him I say...and another lesson for me :-)

Regards Darryl

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #92 on: December 30, 2011, 06:52:22 AM »
I have been going (again) for 122 game days and I have managed to grab 7 'competed for' planes, so they are there.
So you could classify me as a late starter as I restarted after the 'God day' I really don't know how Sami could program in a 'new starter' mode that would not be abused.

I can see it already - a pool of desirable planes for new starters only .... only to see a 'mate' of an established player log in, grab a few planes, skype his mate, go broke, and there you go...a gift.
Call me a cynic but unfortunately I have seen proof on these threads already as to what extent some 'players' will go to and have the nerve to call it 'fair play'

A lot of things can be abused, but this one would be very hard to abuse (you have to own the aircraft to sell to your mate) and easy to catch.  History of ownership of all aircraft is recorded.  Vigilant players can catch things and report it to game admins.

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #93 on: December 30, 2011, 07:11:18 AM »
There are brilliant starts, good starts, bad starts (as was my case of re-start in MT6).  But there are impossible starts.  Try thinking what you would do starting today.  I just got a PM from a player who just started, and I truly had hard to give a reasonable advice.  Nothing on the used market, the closest (somewhat) reasonable aircraft to lease as new is 1  or more years away.  Those odds could still be overcome, especially in a long game world, such as MT6 by the best players, but the players starting now are more likely going to be less experienced players.

I had similar yesterday. I think it's doable as long as you find a decent sized relatively empty airport in a well populated part of the world, and are prepared to stick to 50 seaters for at least 2-3 game years. Lease 3-4 f27s for a year (planning to dump them before C-check), and pick your preferred new aircraft, f50, saab 2000, dhc-8 or ATP. Order a couple, and keep ordering more everytime you've got money. It'll be slow going, but you should have at least 20 odd new 50 seaters within 2 years, and a decent revenue base to expand from there. By that time, the used market shouldn't be so barren either. It'll take a lot of patience and discipline though.

Quote
A lot of things can be abused, but this one would be very hard to abuse (you have to own the aircraft to sell to your mate) and easy to catch.  History of ownership of all aircraft is recorded.  Vigilant players can catch things and report it to game admins.

You wouldn't have to own it, you'd just have to create the 2 planes and then BK. Planes returned from lease are hitting the used market within a couple of game days at the moment. So the odds of your friend getting your 2 (or 4 or 6) created and BKed planes would be high, while you create your actual airline with 2 more created planes. It'd be hard to prove, too. I got 3 757s a few hours ago, and I have a feeling all 3 came from the same player's fleet after he had just BKed. Pure luck for me, but it'd look the same if the person knew me, and told me when he was BKing.

That's why I'd suggest the created planes disappear again if the new airline BKs within a year.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #94 on: December 30, 2011, 07:51:58 AM »
I had similar yesterday. I think it's doable as long as you find a decent sized relatively empty airport in a well populated part of the world, and are prepared to stick to 50 seaters for at least 2-3 game years. Lease 3-4 f27s for a year (planning to dump them before C-check), and pick your preferred new aircraft, f50, saab 2000, dhc-8 or ATP. Order a couple, and keep ordering more everytime you've got money. It'll be slow going, but you should have at least 20 odd new 50 seaters within 2 years, and a decent revenue base to expand from there. By that time, the used market shouldn't be so barren either. It'll take a lot of patience and discipline though.

Well, the Fokkers are down to 4 in storage, so even that would not take you far.  The used market is down to 707 and some versions of 747.  747-400D can't be leased with start-up money.  Very old 747s and 707 would kill you on maintenance if you go past C check.  A lot of them have expired checks anyway....  So it is really next to impossible to start now...  There is an airline at my airport that started leasing new ATRs, and he may make it, but even that is more difficult now, since the order backlog is longer when he started...

You wouldn't have to own it, you'd just have to create the 2 planes and then BK. Planes returned from lease are hitting the used market within a couple of game days at the moment. So the odds of your friend getting your 2 (or 4 or 6) created and BKed planes would be high, while you create your actual airline with 2 more created planes. It'd be hard to prove, too. I got 3 757s a few hours ago, and I have a feeling all 3 came from the same player's fleet after he had just BKed. Pure luck for me, but it'd look the same if the person knew me, and told me when he was BKing.

That's why I'd suggest the created planes disappear again if the new airline BKs within a year.

I don't think that is possible to exploit - just the fact that the airline BKs and its aircraft goes into used market.  It may be there for a day game time or a couple of months.  I don't think the used market can be predicted now, and the aircraft there is as available to other 649 airlines as it is to the BK'd player's buddy.

Fhe fact that the aircraft may be hitting the used market fairly quickly (and I grabbed one aircraft with age of 0.0y just minutes ago) is partially a coincidence, partially a function that the used market is just about empty.  I guess the algorithm tries to put something on the market on the refresh, but the stock is so low that the aircraft may appear quicker now than normal.  In MT5, I recall some aircraft I was watching sitting there for some game years...

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2011, 09:00:17 AM »
Yeah, it's basically new planes only, other than a couple to start with. Even the f27s are now all gone, though there's 3 f50s sitting there right now. So if anyone restarts in the next 10 minutes, they could get those. There's 6 DC-9s and 8 HS 748s in storage/on the market too. That's about it for planes I'd be willing to start with. Best option might even be to ignore used planes altogether, and just order 4 new f50s or similar. Certainly very very difficult to get up and running right now, anyway.

Offline Dutch

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #96 on: December 30, 2011, 10:41:32 AM »
Another option might be to lower the amount of players that's allowed in the game. In MT5 600 was the maximum, and yes, there were people commenting in the first years on how empty the used market was, but it was better than it is now: the only planes that weren't available were A320s/737s/330s/757s/767s and MD80s, but I remember seeing plenty of 747(-400)s, Fokkers, DC10s, MD11s and CRJs. In the MT6 the maximum is 650, and I must say that it is way worse: In three years game I have been able to grab only 1 A320 from the used market.

That brings me to my point, whether it might be an option to reduce the maximum amount of players allowed in, for example say 400. I believe some people came up with the idea to start the next MT when the actual is half way finished, which could be a solution to all players who weren't in time to get in the other one.

Hope this makes sense. :laugh:


Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #97 on: December 30, 2011, 12:10:26 PM »
They can start late now if they want ...and get everyone's rejects  ;D
I fail to see how this will help, start later and compete on established routes where your competitor has better planes than you with a CI and RI already...great idea

A staged start time, so just how do you propose to select who gets to start in the first lucky group?
Please put your hand up if you are volunteering to be one of the late starters ...lol

Just how will that help the late starters get better planes than they do now?
Sorry but this idea has no merit at all.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 12:20:51 PM by Kadachiman »

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2011, 12:13:29 PM »
That brings me to my point, whether it might be an option to reduce the maximum amount of players allowed in, for example say 400. I believe some people came up with the idea to start the next MT when the actual is half way finished, which could be a solution to all players who weren't in time to get in the other one.

Can't agree with this approach at all, as it will kill this game totally.
Start a new MT half way through a current MT will just see the bottom half of players leave in droves, leaving the top half with no competition and more earnings than they know what to do with.....keep repeating this cycle equals boredom and loss of game interest.
If you don't think this will happen just look at what happens to Jet Age when MT starts....mass exodus.


Regards Darryl
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 12:19:40 PM by Kadachiman »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2011, 12:20:37 PM »
A staged start time, so just how do you propose to select who gets to start in the first lucky group?
Please put your hand up if you are volunteering to be one of the late starters ...lol

Just how will that help the late starters get better planes than they do now?
Sorry but thsi idea has no merit at all.

I think he means that a second MT would would start when the first one is half way through.  That way, people who play only 1 game world at one time would be split between 2 game worlds.

 

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