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Author Topic: Used Aircraft Market  (Read 10363 times)

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2011, 01:47:11 AM »
I didn't just grab any old plane. An all previous game worlds I have been able to get the aircraft I want with no problem.  So it wasn't like I didn't have a plan.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that. I was just using that example as being the opposite extreme of what you did.

Quote
I have deviated, a tad to late I admit.  However to be fair I have never seen the used market so empty.  Despite the initial shortage I did assume (again based on previous games), they at least one Airbus would become free before the old aicraft had a C check (9 months!).  

Luckily I just survived and now my Avro's are bloody brilliant.

Sweet.

Quote from: Sranan
i waited and waited, but finally decided to bankrupt. i had new aircraft on order, and the startup airbus aircraft i had (2x A300 & 4x A310) were going off lease.

changed my strategy to just use the new aircraft on order. the used market just wasnot going to work with my strategy.

once the new aircraft started coming in, i was able to make routes for all the aircraft on the first 6 or 7. the problem start once number 8 was arrive, i couldnot utilize the aircraft because 1) no early slots available at the airport and 2) slots were high price.

i was making money but ended up spending most of it on opening new routes each time the new aircraft arrive.

i am new to aws, so i think i should have spend more time in the beginner world before jumping into modern times. a learning experience  Embarrassed

As long as you're making an ok operating profit, you shouldn't worry too much about going into a negative bank balance because of slots. They're just a one off cost, and you'll make it back in a couple of weeks. And as you keep getting more planes, you'll be paying it off quicker. I don't think there's any reason to BK unless you're bored, you've seen somewhere better that you want to restart at, or you're actually losing money every week. I reckon you learn heaps about what sort of risks you can take, how far into the red you can go without breaking your airline, by doing what you described until you grow big enough to have enough moey to fuel quicker growth.

Sranan

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2011, 01:55:58 AM »
As long as you're making an ok operating profit, you shouldn't worry too much about going into a negative bank balance because of slots. They're just a one off cost, and you'll make it back in a couple of weeks. And as you keep getting more planes, you'll be paying it off quicker. I don't think there's any reason to BK unless you're bored, you've seen somewhere better that you want to restart at, or you're actually losing money every week. I reckon you learn heaps about what sort of risks you can take, how far into the red you can go without breaking your airline, by doing what you described until you grow big enough to have enough moey to fuel quicker growth.

yes i was making money. i think i just did get bored and a bit impatient. the airport i was using was running out of morning slots so i would have aircraft sitting for a while between flights. the other thing was the slots were at 1 million almost each time i open a new route. there was coming to a point where i would lose money because aircaft not flying.

as i said i am still new to aws and i take this as a learning experience and 7 credit loss.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2011, 11:22:31 PM »
Just FYI as far as how many aircraft are needed in MT world vs. how many are available in first stages of the game.  If I take MT6 quantities as a base (player number is down to below 200, so some routes may not be flown), here are the stats:

MT5 in service: 22,908
MT6 in service: 8,938

MT5 in storage: 20,859
MT6 in storage: 2,565

MT5 total: 43,767
MT6 total: 11,503

An update to the stats as of December 1997.  Currently, we are down to 321 aircraft in storage / for sale, and half of them are Boeing 707 and 747.

Order backlog for popular manufacturers:

Airbus: 4983
ATR: 662
Boeing: 6047
Bombardier: 626
Fokker: 594
McDonnell Douglas: 789

Total order backlog: 13,701
Total aircraft in service: 16,991

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2011, 02:38:09 AM »
With so few planes in storage, the brokers aren't wasting so much time getting things to market. I just grabbed a DC-10, and the plane info says it was returned from lease on December 6. I leased it on December 6, at ~1200. That means there was less than a minute real time before being returned from lease and appearing on the market. Very lucky timing for me.

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2011, 02:41:44 AM »
I have a new hobby.
Looking at credit ratings, trying to work out who may be going B/K, seeing if they have aircraft that I want and then watching the Dashboard to see if they go under.

Feel like a Vulture waiting for the near dead to wander by   :'(

Offline lunchbox

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2011, 02:44:54 AM »
I have a new hobby.
Looking at credit ratings, trying to work out who may be going B/K, seeing if they have aircraft that I want and then watching the Dashboard to see if they go under.

Feel like a Vulture waiting for the near dead to wander by   :'(


That sounds like a good hobby to take up, I desperately need B752's lol 8)

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2011, 02:51:09 AM »
I probably require a new strategy.
If only I could get a 50% fuel discount when using Russian metal.... lol

HAHAHA I don't believe it
Somebody put a 737-400 on the market for $42M its value was approx $34M .... bad enough?
But it was 8.01 years old meaning that the D check had expired so for the new CEO another $2M and 60 days parked up
Now I have seen desperate  ;D

Edit - actually desperate is me trying to find out who brought is so that I can wait for them to go B/K and then try to grab a recently D checked 737-400  :-[
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 04:44:35 AM by Kadachiman »

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2011, 11:03:39 AM »
I bought a 7 year old Fokker 100 a year ago and dumped it on the market 16 days before D check.... I priced it at 250K per calendar month with a maximum lease period of 12 months... and someone took it. At the moment the AC is in D check and will return to me with 7 years to go till I decide what to do with it.
The airline that took it was only 5 days in business, so I expect the AC to be returned before that, fully checked on another ones expanses  ;D

Yes... It might be called cheating... but it is fully in line with the game rules  ::)

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2011, 11:35:56 AM »
Oh dear, yet again the same talk and same arguments.

The market is all about supply and demand, and right now the demand is extremely high. You cannot compare the start of a game world to any real world situation as in real life the world is not empty and airlines do not all just pop to it at the same date.


what really p***es me off is that you're so arrogant towards your players who pay money to play.
when are you gonna stop hiding from the fact that the used market is so flawed that it limits the playability of the game?

There have been a BILLION good ideas on these forums on how to better the used market situation but you just sit back and add rules and "tweaks" to the engine.

Getting you to change something Sami is worse than getting Apple to change anything.

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2011, 12:04:29 PM »
There is NO problem with the used market. YOU decided a certain strategy that fails to deliver. There are perfect aircraft available from the production lines with little waiting time.

Offline Sami

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2011, 01:44:58 PM »
There have been a BILLION good ideas on these forums on how to better the used market situation but you just sit back and add rules and "tweaks" to the engine.

Well, let's see these billions of good ideas then, please? Apart from an auction style system (and the call system that was implemented), there have been no suggestions that would help at all considering the long run (or be at all realistic).

And for the record, the used market has been tuned & tweaked quite much over the last 6 months or so, and it is now considered to be the final version (the calls system introduced a pretty much complete overhaul of the system, including completely new interface). I am saying this once more, that aircraft cannot pop out of thin air to the market and the supply of them cannot and will not be endless. Like the supply of passengers, slots and everything else, also supply of aircraft depends on what other players do, and there is always some aspect that is "the most limiting" and it gets the focus and blame from the players.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 01:53:45 PM by sami »

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2011, 03:58:35 PM »
we've talked about a points system. there have been talks about reserving aircraft.
I guess the ideas depend on how much gametime you feel each player should have to put into the game to be competitive.

if you view it as WoW = the more you play the faster you reach a higher level provided you're at a proficiency level to make the grades.

or,

if you want to model it so that strategy matters more than gametime. Which to me, given the "real time" feel the game has, would make more sense than having to sit and monitor the used market all the time.

IMHO, the strategy you go for should have a greater impact on the game than your eager to monitor the used market. Having X amount of USED AC you can bid on, or a quota of X amount of AC in each class, or X amount of AC based on points would allow you to get whatever equipment you want.

And I'd rather play many players with them having a chance of getting AC to fly, than to compete against a few really good players.

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2011, 03:59:04 PM »
There is NO problem with the used market. YOU decided a certain strategy that fails to deliver. There are perfect aircraft available from the production lines with little waiting time.

yeah..... right......

Offline ARASKA

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2011, 04:08:15 PM »
There is NO problem with the used market. YOU decided a certain strategy that fails to deliver. There are perfect aircraft available from the production lines with little waiting time.
If you count little waiting time as 2-4 years......

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2011, 04:29:32 PM »
If you count little waiting time as 2-4 years......
No I do not. A few months is a little waiting time... But if you want to order Boeing 737 and Airbus A20 family like everyone else is doing be y guest.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2011, 05:25:20 PM »
Even MD90 was at 1+ years very early on when I realised i could use it then it was too late. With low production rates it only takes large orders from a few customers to fill them up.

I understand being in Europe that the BAe 146 and Fokker 100 is ideal for you but they don't suit routes for all other continents other wise it would easy game.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline ARASKA

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2011, 06:56:57 PM »
Even MD90 was at 1+ years very early on when I realised i could use it then it was too late. With low production rates it only takes large orders from a few customers to fill them up.

I understand being in Europe that the BAe 146 and Fokker 100 is ideal for you but they don't suit routes for all other continents other wise it would easy game.
I just restarted my airline flying MD-90s out of Seattle. I originally got 1 off of the used market and then there were none for about 3 weeks game time. I finally ordered 1 new that would come in about 2 years. A couple of days after I did that, there were about 10 MD-90s released to the used market. I restarted again so I got two MD-90s to begin with. I could have easily gotten BAe-146s or Saab 2000s, but they are defiantly not ideal for an airport like Seattle. 

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2011, 07:09:49 PM »
Well, let's see these billions of good ideas then, please? Apart from an auction style system (and the call system that was implemented), there have been no suggestions that would help at all considering the long run (or be at all realistic).

And for the record, the used market has been tuned & tweaked quite much over the last 6 months or so, and it is now considered to be the final version (the calls system introduced a pretty much complete overhaul of the system, including completely new interface). I am saying this once more, that aircraft cannot pop out of thin air to the market and the supply of them cannot and will not be endless. Like the supply of passengers, slots and everything else, also supply of aircraft depends on what other players do, and there is always some aspect that is "the most limiting" and it gets the focus and blame from the players.

The used market is great now for existing players.  All the tweeks really made it as fair as it can get.

The fact that there are times during the game when there is very little on the used market is ok for established airlines.  The only thing that remains to be a problem is the players starting late, roughly 1 to 6 years into the game (or airlines re-starting during those years).

Offline ARASKA

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2011, 07:58:00 PM »
 The only thing that remains to be a problem is the players starting late, roughly 1 to 6 years into the game (or airlines re-starting during those years).
That's the problem I have  :P

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2011, 08:24:57 PM »
That's the problem I have  :P

See my proposed solution here:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,36855.0.html

Feel free to comment there

 

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