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Author Topic: Used Aircraft Market  (Read 10362 times)

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2011, 06:59:07 PM »
Maarten the point is if you don't jump on the production lists early on then you can't secure new aircraft quickly. It is okay for you because you have chosen relatively unpopular aircraft, choosing availability over performance. So you will not have trouble getting to 35 aircraft whether this is a good or bad tactic or not.

You can get that many of even the more popular aircraft if you start on day 1 and get some 15 aircraft in first 8 game months from the used market before it dries up.  That gives you enough income to feed 2 to 3 production lines and have steady stream of orders and deliveries

If you don't get those 15 aircraft ~8 game months of game play, you have pretty much lost 4+ years.  It will take you 4 years to get the same 15 aircraft....  (unless you are buying turbo props, that cheaper and can be delivered quicker....)

Not a complaint, just stating the obvious...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 07:12:56 PM by JumboShrimp »

minerva

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2011, 09:10:52 PM »
This thread, or one just like it, rehashes the same points again and again with every new game world, usually, but not always, by new(er) players.  It seems to me there are two issues here that need to be separated.

1st. The comparison of AWS to the 'real world'.  As has been pointed out by Sami and others, AWS operates on real world principles that match pretty closely real world processes (supply and demand based on actual manufacturing production capacity).  The problem is the artificial nature of starting the game: 600+ brand new airlines starting up in a world with no existing carriers and all looking for lots of a/c at exactly the same time.  That has never happened in real life, but if it did it would lead to EXACTLY the same problem of shortages of desirable used a/c and long wait times on new aircraft. As Lemonbutt indicates, some models in MT6 already have higher production numbers than in the 'real world.'  Thus AWS models aircraft supply just as it should.  Numerous proposals have been made to rectify the problem of start-up shortages over the past few years, including starting the game worlds with AI airlines and Sami's plan to introduce super-long game worlds. These are still the works, I understand. In the meantime, calls for changes, however good those ideas might be, ought not be justified on the basis of 'the real world', because further interference in the used market (on top of the limits already in place) only further distorts the a/c market AWAY from real world conditions.

2nd. Gameplay.  The more experienced players who have contributed to this thread have suggested ways in which you can make the best of the used/new markets given the conditions that experience tells them will prevail in the first couple of game world years.  Experience really does count in AWS.  Understanding how AWS works as a game is as important as understanding real world aviation.  It is true that the first few months are crucial to a good start up, but many new players don't seem to realize that they can't build a legacy airline from the used market and don't plan for the future.  The used market in AWS inevitably dries up within a year or so of game start, and if you don't have a plan for that eventuality then you're stuck wasting time on the used market or waiting years for a/c on the already crowded new production lists.  However, even if you are in that position, you still have choices.  The first is to go for unpopular or old a/c that are still plentiful on shorter leases and invest your profits in new aircraft of the model you really hanker for.  Too many players, in my opinion, try to build fleets of their favourite plane or what looks like the best performing a/c from the get go without thinking about how you can grow your airline with what is available and then switch to the better performing a/c later.  The other option is to invest in new a/c in the long term now and put your expansion plans on hold for a game year or two (playing the used market too, if you like).  The fact is, if you have a sound foundation now and are making profits, you can afford to wait, because plenty of other airlines will BK over the next game year or so, and as your CI goes up (cheaply if you are still quite small) you'll be able to compete on routes that are already filled when your planes start to arrive. If you've made efficient choices, and are playing to be a significant airline in the long term, you'll still do well.  The problem is, of course, both choices require patience, something that is absolutely essential to do well in AWS but something that is always shown to be absent in threads like this.
 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 09:16:20 PM by minerva »

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2011, 09:15:41 PM »
+1

I built an airline in DOTM2 that ended up being worth over $10 billion without getting a single plane from the used market (brand new BAC 1-11 the whole way).  Yes, I had to wait a couple months before the first aircraft showed up, but it can be done.  We live in a world of instant gratification and AWS is a game of patience.   It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Online ZombieSlayer

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2011, 11:07:39 PM »
 It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Amen to that. 25 year game world, a looonnngggg time to go!
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline razzbc

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2011, 01:45:20 AM »
I got lucky at 1 in the morning, and an airbus fell out of the sky like manna (perhaps not the best metaphor here)... ten minutes later a newer, better one became available too... I almost cried...

It wouldnt be nearly as much an issue if there were other planes with comparable fuel economies... When a huge airbus can travel on 6000 kg per hour, and the best boeing of comparable size is up at 13000 kg per hour, as are the smaller planes when you pro-rate them to the big suckers, it makes it difficult to grow responsibly.

All that said, I think I joined this world a week or two in, so maybe I screwed myself out of four years by being Johnny-come-lately...

mattb

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2011, 08:01:14 AM »
Not sure your fuel figures are correct. I have got sick of of waiting for a a320's so I will use Avro RJ - 100s as the backbone of my fleet.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 08:08:20 AM by mattb »

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2011, 08:48:25 AM »
Not sure your fuel figures are correct. I have got sick of of waiting for a a320's so I will use Avro RJ - 100s as the backbone of my fleet.

I think he's comparing a310s with b707s to get those fuel numbers.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2011, 07:48:33 PM »
Just FYI as far as how many aircraft are needed in MT world vs. how many are available in first stages of the game.  If I take MT6 quantities as a base (player number is down to below 200, so some routes may not be flown), here are the stats:

MT5 in service: 22,908
MT6 in service: 8,938

MT5 in storage: 20,859
MT6 in storage: 2,565

MT5 total: 43,767
MT6 total: 11,503
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 08:07:21 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline michael

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2011, 03:18:43 AM »
Just FYI as far as how many aircraft are needed in MT world vs. how many are available in first stages of the game.  If I take MT6 quantities as a base (player number is down to below 200, so some routes may not be flown), here are the stats:

MT5 in service: 22,908
MT6 in service: 8,938

MT5 in storage: 20,859
MT6 in storage: 2,565

MT5 total: 43,767
MT6 total: 11,503

Nice stats! There is a difference though that there are many other production queues open in this game compared to the last - such as the MD80/90 and 733/4. However, that does not explain the huge gap in total planes available.

As another example of a difference between the two games, I noticed in this game there were no A330s available at the start however the A330 started flying in 1993. The A330s in storage now are the ones the AI lessors took off the production line when the game started.

Presently, our calls are probably wasted on the used market right now until the fuel price goes up and some bankruptcies start. Which doesn't sound like a nice thing to consider as people are paying to play the game.

mattb

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2011, 08:33:27 AM »
This lack of used aircraft is stupid. I have just had my single aircraft have a c check and my new aircraft has just arrived to late.
Usually I can plan so a new aircraft takes over the exisiting schedule then when the old one comes of maintanance I assign it new routes. I never lose money. Now I have just been f***ed through no fault of my own.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2011, 01:23:01 PM »
Presently, our calls are probably wasted on the used market right now until the fuel price goes up and some bankruptcies start. Which doesn't sound like a nice thing to consider as people are paying to play the game.

Sums up the situation quite well it's sad but true.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2011, 02:02:22 PM »
Does that mean that most people would prefer to have 10,000 x A320-200 available on day # 1?
Wow that would make it a real challenge.

Lets make it so a Grade 1 student can play....oh what fun then  ;D

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2011, 02:21:00 PM »
This lack of used aircraft is stupid. I have just had my single aircraft have a c check and my new aircraft has just arrived to late.
Usually I can plan so a new aircraft takes over the exisiting schedule then when the old one comes of maintanance I assign it new routes. I never lose money. Now I have just been f***ed through no fault of my own.

Not trying to be harsh, but saying it's through no fault of your own doesn't seem accurate. People who display no patience, grab 10 planes from 10 different fleet types and go bankrupt, it's happened because they have chosen a path that doesn't make much sense, that will almost certainly lead to failure.

You have displayed excessive patience, and refused to deviate from a strategy of 'lease a320s and only a320s' until it was too late.

The first person goes bankrupt because they haven't thought about their strategy at all. You've gone bankrupt because you've worked out a good strategy, but have been completely inflexible about changing if your initial strategy stops being feasible.

The extreme scarcity on the used market is certainly making life challenging. I started a few months late, I'd certainly have liked to lease only a320s. I haven't got a single one, I don't think I've seen a single used one. I've been forced to get most of my planes new, and I've been forced to get my new planes from production lines that were sparse enough that I could get planes relatively quickly (so no a320s or 757s there, either). The game's more interesting to me when it's challenging. It gets boring when you don't need to make tough decisions.

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2011, 02:29:54 PM »
In other news, the Tu-204 production line is wide open and you can take delivery of new aircraft rather quickly.  Don't want to fly Russian metal?  If you do your research versus just following the herd, you'll know that the Tu-204 has comparable fuel burn to the 757 and is 50% the price (albeit with higher maintenance).  Anyone complaining about the lack of aircraft is just being lazy.  The Avro RJ-100 line can also deliver competitive aircraft rather quickly...

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2011, 03:09:19 PM »
In other news, the Tu-204 production line is wide open and you can take delivery of new aircraft rather quickly.  Don't want to fly Russian metal?  If you do your research versus just following the herd, you'll know that the Tu-204 has comparable fuel burn to the 757 and is 50% the price (albeit with higher maintenance).  Anyone complaining about the lack of aircraft is just being lazy.  The Avro RJ-100 line can also deliver competitive aircraft rather quickly...

I did some sums and the Tu-204 is more comparable in fuel burn to 727-200Adv than 757-200... I can PM you the numbers if you wish.

Although it still tempted me, don't get me wrong.... just a pity the RR powered ones come out so late. Then it is more of a comparison to 757 (same engines for a start).
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Sranan

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2011, 03:16:49 PM »
i waited and waited, but finally decided to bankrupt. i had new aircraft on order, and the startup airbus aircraft i had (2x A300 & 4x A310) were going off lease.

changed my strategy to just use the new aircraft on order. the used market just wasnot going to work with my strategy.

once the new aircraft started coming in, i was able to make routes for all the aircraft on the first 6 or 7. the problem start once number 8 was arrive, i couldnot utilize the aircraft because 1) no early slots available at the airport and 2) slots were high price.

i was making money but ended up spending most of it on opening new routes each time the new aircraft arrive.

i am new to aws, so i think i should have spend more time in the beginner world before jumping into modern times. a learning experience  :-[

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2011, 04:13:13 PM »
I did some sums and the Tu-204 is more comparable in fuel burn to 727-200Adv than 757-200... I can PM you the numbers if you wish.

Although it still tempted me, don't get me wrong.... just a pity the RR powered ones come out so late. Then it is more of a comparison to 757 (same engines for a start).

Yes, but I'm currently flying 727 profitably.  This goes back to strategy.  You cannot expect to start the game with the same fleet you'll finish with.  I have 11 B727 and 5 B757 which are nothing more than placeholders until I can replace them with new aircraft.  You can fly the Tu204 with 727 fuel burn for 5-7 years and make a seamless transition to the more efficient Tu204 and even buy them outright in 5-7 years as they are 50% the cost of a 757.  Also, flying short distances with the Tu204 makes fuel a non-issue.  Again, this goes back to the strategy argument of making the best of what is available.  It is completely unreasonable to assume you can build a fleet of 50 aircraft of just B737 or A320 within the first 2 years.  Yes, it can be done and people do it, but these are the most experienced/seasoned players who know how to work the system to their advantage in getting off to a strong start with exceptional cashflow.

Personally, most airlines I've run haven't had a single Boeing or Airbus aircraft in it's fleet and have been profitable 90%+ of the time (that CRJ startup airline was tough).  ATR, Fokker, McDonnell Douglas, Saab, and Bombardier all make competitive aircraft as well as the Tu204 mentioned.  There are ~40 F27 and other large prop planes on the used market as I type this.  Unless your based in Tahiti, Reunion, or Guam, you should be able to launch a fleet of F27 profitably.  But of course if you're sitting on a pile of money waiting for an A320 to fall into your lap, you'll never see the potential sitting in front of you.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2011, 05:24:08 PM »
Yes, but I'm currently flying 727 profitably. 

Hmmm, I've seen them BK people in DOTM, so as a rule of thumb I personally do not then use the in MT. If you can make them work then that's great, but I've seen so many people say they are running a big profitable with DC8, 707 or 727 as their backbone, and they get their market share in the first years but they are never around long after.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

mattb

  • Former member
Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2011, 06:25:13 PM »
Not trying to be harsh, but saying it's through no fault of your own doesn't seem accurate. People who display no patience, grab 10 planes from 10 different fleet types and go bankrupt, it's happened because they have chosen a path that doesn't make much sense, that will almost certainly lead to failure.

I didn't just grab any old plane. An all previous game worlds I have been able to get the aircraft I want with no problem.  So it wasn't like I didn't have a plan.

You have displayed excessive patience, and refused to deviate from a strategy of 'lease a320s and only a320s' until it was too late.

I have deviated, a tad to late I admit.  However to be fair I have never seen the used market so empty.  Despite the initial shortage I did assume (again based on previous games), they at least one Airbus would become free before the old aicraft had a C check (9 months!).  

You've gone bankrupt because you've worked out a good strategy, but have been completely inflexible about changing if your initial strategy stops being feasible.

Luckily I just survived and now my Avro's are bloody brilliant.

Offline razzbc

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Re: Used Aircraft Market
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2011, 01:18:36 AM »
Had my finger on the trigger button for a new Tupolev, but couldnt quite do it... went back to the used market one last time and ta da, an Airbus magically appeared... its like the AWS gods are mocking me...

 

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