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Author Topic: B737-300 ?????  (Read 2381 times)

Yullover

  • Former member
B737-300 ?????
« on: November 29, 2011, 08:10:39 PM »
WOW... in less then 7 GAME DAYS the production of the 737-300 is now all ready in 1987 ???

580 orders in less then 6 REAL hours... is why finally this game is always for people that are in front of there computer 24h/24h...

Sorry but i'm really frustrating !!!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 08:14:25 PM by Yullover »

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 08:29:31 PM »
WOW... in less then 7 GAME DAYS the production of the 737-300 is now all ready in 1987 ???

580 orders in less then 6 REAL hours... is why finally this game is always for people that are in front of there computer 24h/24h...

Sorry but i'm really frustrating !!!

Yep. I missed the launch by 40 minutes and my first frame does not arrive until a year after first delivery. Wait for the A330...it will be even worse!
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline alexgv1

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 09:13:58 PM »
Backlog might reduce once te production rates have gone up.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline LemonButt

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 09:57:41 PM »
Yep--absolutely ridiculous.  I think the new aircraft ordering needs to be restructured when a new one comes out.  Perhaps a max order of 14 planes with 6 month spreads so it takes 7 years to get all 14 of them.  Once the aircraft goes into production, the schedule should shuffle and compress to "fill in" the gaps so you can get one every month or whatever.  This would allow airlines to order at ANY time during the launch period and still have a fair shot at getting new aircraft within a year or two of launch.

LOT767

  • Former member
Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 11:50:18 PM »
WOW... in less then 7 GAME DAYS the production of the 737-300 is now all ready in 1987 ???

580 orders in less then 6 REAL hours... is why finally this game is always for people that are in front of there computer 24h/24h...

Sorry but i'm really frustrating !!!

Pretty much got it right, unless you sit at the computer 24/7 checking the game 30 times a day......You loose! Thow in not starting the game world in a top airport and anything after a day the game world starts it's pointless even trying.....

Offline Troxartas86

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2011, 12:30:15 AM »
This is why I'm hiding in Nigeria with tiny turboprops and some rusty old Viscounts. There's nothing worth getting used and you won't get anything new this decade. I'm just biding my time and saving up money until I catch something early.

Offline co737800

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 11:25:36 PM »
I think the problem is the games have to many players and its always the same players that somehow grow so big in such a short time. If you look at some airlines with 30 airplanes have 80 on order. It would be great to have smaller games with way less players, cause its got the the point that only the top few airlines are make tons of money then flood markets to wipe out other airlines.

Offline dmoose42

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 12:02:27 AM »
As a player with a larger airline in several game worlds, I disagree.  Having competition makes things more interesting.  Even when I haven't been the biggest airline even in my hub, it was definitely more interesting to have that competition than to have a half empty world where it is easy to make money and nothing interesting ever happens.

As for the 737, I wasn't around my computer so I am completely shut out of the 737 as well, so what I do have to do?  Change my strategy and pick less popular airplanes.  This is something that all but the top handful of airlines face at one point or another.  Now I'm leasing 707s even though they are not ideal because WHY? because they are available in quantities, even though I am looking forward to the day that I can retire them.  Same is true with smaller aircraft.  There are always options available, it's a question of whether or not you can be satisfied and figure out how to make an airplane that's not ideal work.

I agree with LemonButt that perhaps some change in approach may improve the scheduling aspect - i think the 6 month spread idea is not practical.  Why order a plane and deal with commonality costs if you have to wait 6 months to get just one more.  I think a better idea to promote equity in the initial launch would be to have it be a dutch auction type approach.  Airlines that want to be guaranteed a huge order would have to pay a significant premium to an airline that is only looking for 5-7 planes or take a risk that they would have significant delivery delays.

Additionally, the number of monthly production slots would be a function of the initial interest shown in the auction based on # of airlines submitting a bid, rather than the number of aircraft ordered.  also the frequency in which an airline can get a slot would not be increased as the number of production slots increase, so that the increase in slots would benefit a wider number of airlines.

i know this isn't exactly realistic, but may improve game play.


Offline LemonButt

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 12:51:04 AM »
As a player with a larger airline in several game worlds, I disagree.  Having competition makes things more interesting.  Even when I haven't been the biggest airline even in my hub, it was definitely more interesting to have that competition than to have a half empty world where it is easy to make money and nothing interesting ever happens.

As for the 737, I wasn't around my computer so I am completely shut out of the 737 as well, so what I do have to do?  Change my strategy and pick less popular airplanes.  This is something that all but the top handful of airlines face at one point or another.  Now I'm leasing 707s even though they are not ideal because WHY? because they are available in quantities, even though I am looking forward to the day that I can retire them.  Same is true with smaller aircraft.  There are always options available, it's a question of whether or not you can be satisfied and figure out how to make an airplane that's not ideal work.

I agree with LemonButt that perhaps some change in approach may improve the scheduling aspect - i think the 6 month spread idea is not practical.  Why order a plane and deal with commonality costs if you have to wait 6 months to get just one more.  I think a better idea to promote equity in the initial launch would be to have it be a dutch auction type approach.  Airlines that want to be guaranteed a huge order would have to pay a significant premium to an airline that is only looking for 5-7 planes or take a risk that they would have significant delivery delays.

Additionally, the number of monthly production slots would be a function of the initial interest shown in the auction based on # of airlines submitting a bid, rather than the number of aircraft ordered.  also the frequency in which an airline can get a slot would not be increased as the number of production slots increase, so that the increase in slots would benefit a wider number of airlines.

i know this isn't exactly realistic, but may improve game play.



When a model is available for order, but not in production (launch period) the orders are spaced out 6 months.  When the aircraft goes into production, the schedule is adjusted to move up existing orders to fill the gaps in.  For example, if an aircraft has 20 slots/month for production, that is 120 slots in the first (and second) 6 months of production.  If less than 120 airlines order that model to fill the remaining 119 spots in each 6 month block, the orders get moved up per normal ordering.  This leaves gaps for airlines to order during the launch period without having to babysit their computer 24/7 for the launch.

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 01:43:01 AM »
WOW... in less then 7 GAME DAYS the production of the 737-300 is now all ready in 1987 ???

580 orders in less then 6 REAL hours... is why finally this game is always for people that are in front of there computer 24h/24h...

Sorry but i'm really frustrating !!!

I'm assuming then that if you had of been the first airline to order that you would have considered other players and limited your order to a max of 10 frames to make it fair for other airlines?

What is the good of playing a game where everyone gets exactly what they want when they want it, where is the strategy, competitive gameplay or the game challenge if this was the case, how boring it would be.

Offline dmoose42

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2011, 03:49:04 AM »
What is the good of playing a game where everyone gets exactly what they want when they want it, where is the strategy, competitive gameplay or the game challenge if this was the case, how boring it would be.

I agree entirely.  I think maintaining the challenge factor is crucial.  I forget who said it, but one of the challenges of AWS (and games in general) is maintaining an effective challenge throughout the game.  I do think the long delays for fleet types is somewhat of an imposition on more casual/less dedicated/ and or smaller airlines.  The question is whether or not a change in the game rules is necessary to protect such people.  My general belief is that unless it can be demonstrated at a rule is absolutely necessary, less 'rules' is better than more 'rules'.  I do think the acquisition of new planes is highly competitive and that particularly in the early/mid-game, the demand for planes far exceeds the supply of planes.  The question is whether or not changing this dynamic is worth it or even necessary.  Simply making more planes available early will just flood the market and ultimately make the game less interesting.  Making due with inferior aircraft while plotting a longer term strategy is an important part of AWS.  However, I do feel empathy for the idea that airlines that babysit their computers have a much better chance of getting in on new aircraft because the launch is spontaneous (plus or minus 18 months from actual).  In the real-world there is a lot more interaction between the airlines and the aircraft manufacturers.  The question is whether or not incorporating more dynamicism and flexibility into this model is worth it.  To me it's a lot of speculation and a different model of delivery will still make people unhappy while potentially adding adverse consequences. 

Perhaps the real issue (in this case of the 737) is that the plane is just too cheap relative to the benefit it provides and that higher prices would be a more effective deterrent.  The problem is that the biggest most profitable airlines would still pay and the smaller airlines would likely suffer more.

Another interesting idea is that in the launch period (perhaps defined as 2-3 real days), airlines' orders are prioritized in the percentage of the fleet that the airline has with that manufacturer.  For example, if you are a small airline with 100% Boeing you would get priority on Boeing aircraft before a large airline with 50% Boeing.  It doesn't reflect reality (Boeing would rather have the 50 737 order from United than a 2 plane order from dmoose42's airline), but may make fleet choices more interesting.

dmoose42

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2011, 04:13:21 AM »
I agree entirely.  I think maintaining the challenge factor is crucial.  I forget who said it, but one of the challenges of AWS (and games in general) is maintaining an effective challenge throughout the game.  I do think the long delays for fleet types is somewhat of an imposition on more casual/less dedicated/ and or smaller airlines.  The question is whether or not a change in the game rules is necessary to protect such people.  My general belief is that unless it can be demonstrated at a rule is absolutely necessary, less 'rules' is better than more 'rules'.  I do think the acquisition of new planes is highly competitive and that particularly in the early/mid-game, the demand for planes far exceeds the supply of planes.  The question is whether or not changing this dynamic is worth it or even necessary.  Simply making more planes available early will just flood the market and ultimately make the game less interesting.  Making due with inferior aircraft while plotting a longer term strategy is an important part of AWS.  However, I do feel empathy for the idea that airlines that babysit their computers have a much better chance of getting in on new aircraft because the launch is spontaneous (plus or minus 18 months from actual).  In the real-world there is a lot more interaction between the airlines and the aircraft manufacturers.  The question is whether or not incorporating more dynamicism and flexibility into this model is worth it.  To me it's a lot of speculation and a different model of delivery will still make people unhappy while potentially adding adverse consequences. 

Perhaps the real issue (in this case of the 737) is that the plane is just too cheap relative to the benefit it provides and that higher prices would be a more effective deterrent.  The problem is that the biggest most profitable airlines would still pay and the smaller airlines would likely suffer more.

Another interesting idea is that in the launch period (perhaps defined as 2-3 real days), airlines' orders are prioritized in the percentage of the fleet that the airline has with that manufacturer.  For example, if you are a small airline with 100% Boeing you would get priority on Boeing aircraft before a large airline with 50% Boeing.  It doesn't reflect reality (Boeing would rather have the 50 737 order from United than a 2 plane order from dmoose42's airline), but may make fleet choices more interesting.

dmoose42

Building on the idea that manufacturers have more interaction with the customers prior to launch....

Could there be a pre-launch order period, say 3-6 game months following the announcement, when airlines can place a single initial order for up to 50 frames? This would allow an airline to be able to get good production slots without having to spend all day watching for the launch. Once the pre-order period is up, a production schedule is released and the initial production rate is determined. Initial orders may not be delivered every 15 or 18 days like normal, but rather delivery intervals would be determined by the number of orders placed in the pre-order period and the initial rate of production.

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline TerryMcKenna

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2011, 08:36:32 PM »
The main problem as I see it is that the games are structured too narrowly to favour certain aircraft types and larger airports. Therefore everyone is trying to set up the same sort of airline based around a few models and the same airports.
If the economic variables were adjusted to make it viable to run smaller aircraft from smaller regional airports, this would greatly broaden the scope and option range for the games. Things like staffing levels need to be adjusted.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 08:46:09 PM by TerryMcKenna »

Offline LemonButt

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2011, 11:15:59 PM »
What is the good of playing a game where everyone gets exactly what they want when they want it, where is the strategy, competitive gameplay or the game challenge if this was the case, how boring it would be.

This isn't the problem--the problem is things happen instantly when it takes months/years in real life to execute.  For example, you don't order 50 aircraft instantly in real life, but you can in AWS, which is where the rub is.

Offline Meicci

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2011, 12:19:29 AM »
For example, you don't order 50 aircraft instantly in real life

And why is that?

Offline LemonButt

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 12:51:22 AM »
And why is that?

Because you can't just call Boeing and say you want 50 planes.  You have to have financial backing from lenders, business plans presented, feasibility studies completed, etc.  The manufacturing supply chain is extremely complex as well and takt times need to be adjusted accordingly.  On top of this, if you order a plane for delivery in 2 years, Boeing and the banks want to make sure you're around in 2 years and not bankrupt.  The last thing a bank wants is a repossessed aircraft and the last thing Boeing wants to do is flood the used market with aircraft, which drives down prices of new aircraft and slows new aircraft production due to availability.  It's not like you can just step up to the counter and order a Big Mac...it's much more complex.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 04:18:54 AM »
Because you can't just call Boeing and say you want 50 planes.  You have to have financial backing from lenders, business plans presented, feasibility studies completed, etc.  The manufacturing supply chain is extremely complex as well and takt times need to be adjusted accordingly.  On top of this, if you order a plane for delivery in 2 years, Boeing and the banks want to make sure you're around in 2 years and not bankrupt.  The last thing a bank wants is a repossessed aircraft and the last thing Boeing wants to do is flood the used market with aircraft, which drives down prices of new aircraft and slows new aircraft production due to availability.  It's not like you can just step up to the counter and order a Big Mac...it's much more complex.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204517204577043760571868178.html

An order made this month for 230 Boeing 737s

Offline alexgv1

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2011, 04:24:55 AM »
I imagine LB means upstarts ordering 50 planes within the first years. Most growth I've heard of an airline company is 25m to 0.85bn in 4 years. AA for example has been flying for yonks, of course airlines like that wont have trouble getting the financing for 460 planes or whatever it was.

Lion Air is an interesting one, they launched the 737-900ER when before that they were flying a few 737 classics and MDs. I do wonder where airlines like that get the money. Most likely massive discounts by ordering when Boeing had a slump in production like Ryanair did. Are they government backed.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2011, 04:29:36 AM »
I imagine LB means upstarts ordering 50 planes within the first years. Most growth I've heard of an airline company is 25m to 0.85bn in 4 years. AA for example has been flying for yonks, of course airlines like that wont have trouble getting the financing for 460 planes or whatever it was.

Lion Air is an interesting one, they launched the 737-900ER when before that they were flying a few 737 classics and MDs. I do wonder where airlines like that get the money. Most likely massive discounts by ordering when Boeing had a slump in production like Ryanair did. Are they government backed.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS AIRLINE IS!!!!!! 

I am not trying to yell, really.    Read the backhround on this.   Their current fleet is 70 planes... 14 are 733s and 734s. 4 are MD 90s.  2 744s and the rest are 739ers. 

Offline alexgv1

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Re: B737-300 ?????
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2011, 04:43:11 AM »
How much do you know about them?  I've more than just glanced wiki. My mate flew for them on the 737 so I spoke about them quite a lot.

They have been around for the while, and their orderbook had 200 aircraft on it before this order. They are like the Ryanair of South East Asia...
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

 

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